BoxRec

i have said it, but few have backed what i said....the real froch didnt turn up, he wasnt as determined or hungry as he usually is, he didnt put it on the line like he has so many time, his reflexes were totally off, he flinched when he got hit a few times which was shocking......now i see even ward was suprised how easily he beat froch and how sluggish he was.

http://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/sport/story/126851.html

Hm. I think he did turn up. Ward's just that good. Froch wins by breaking people down. He just couldn't get to Ward. I'm over it. There are no excuses.

Froch is naturally slow of hand and foot; his lack of speed wasn't the result of an uninspired performance.

And perhaps Ward is surprised because he underrated his own abilities prior to the fight.

clopixolacuphase wrote:Hm. I think he did turn up. Ward's just that good. Froch wins by breaking people down. He just couldn't get to Ward. I'm over it. There are no excuses.

Froch didn't seem to put much effort into the fight. I thought it was an awful performance from him and I doubt that was him at his best.

Horse wrote:

clopixolacuphase wrote:Hm. I think he did turn up. Ward's just that good. Froch wins by breaking people down. He just couldn't get to Ward. I'm over it. There are no excuses.

Froch didn't seem to put much effort into the fight. I thought it was an awful performance from him and I doubt that was him at his best.

Did he put in an awful performance, or did Ward have an answer for everything he tried and just shut him down? I wanted Froch to win more than anything but he just looked like he couldn't deal with Ward. I'm not going to make any excuses for him. He didn't. He has things to work on and he admitted it himself.

clopixolacuphase wrote:Did he put in an awful performance, or did Ward have an answer for everything he tried and just shut him down? I wanted Froch to win more than anything but he just looked like he couldn't deal with Ward. I'm not going to make any excuses for him. He didn't. He has things to work on and he admitted it himself.

Ward had an answer for everything, but Froch didn't question him enough. Froch should have attacked him from the first bell, but he didn't, he was too negative.

I don't want to take anything away from Ward as he is obviously an excellent fighter, but I think Froch let himself down.

I dunno. I thought he was brave as usual. Look at his face at the end. Ward caught him with some good shots. I think if he'd have opened up more he would have just missed more and got countered. Ward looked very good. I don't want to take anything away from either fighter. If I have one criticism, it wasn't that exciting a fight was it?

clopixolacuphase wrote:I dunno. I thought he was brave as usual. Look at his face at the end. Ward caught him with some good shots. I think if he'd have opened up more he would have just missed more and got countered.

He would have been countered more, but I think his only real chance was to make Ward tire and outwork him in the later rounds.

clopixolacuphase wrote:Ward looked very good. I don't want to take anything away from either fighter. If I have one criticism, it wasn't that exciting a fight was it?

No.

Disagree with the OP. Did he not turn up for 11 rounds against Taylor, or against Dirrel either? As you cannot say he put it on the line against these either (apart from the 12th against Taylor).

I would say Taylor, Dirrel and Ward are the three fastest guys he has faced, and all three gave him major major problems.

Froch looked marvelous against Abraham, fought inspired against Pascal and I was impressed against Johnson and in the later part of the Kessler fight (the first few rounds of that one were not fight of the year contenders). However, none of these fighters are particularly elusive and approached the fight fighting in a very conventional manner. It suited Froch's strength. When Kessler boxed he beat Froch to the punch, and Kessler aint that quick anymore.

stujones wrote:Disagree with the OP. Did he not turn up for 11 rounds against Taylor, or against Dirrel either? As you cannot say he put it on the line against these either (apart from the 12th against Taylor).

I would say Taylor, Dirrel and Ward are the three fastest guys he has faced, and all three gave him major major problems.

Froch looked marvelous against Abraham, fought inspired against Pascal and I was impressed against Johnson and in the later part of the Kessler fight (the first few rounds of that one were not fight of the year contenders). However, none of these fighters are particularly elusive and approached the fight fighting in a very conventional manner. It suited Froch's strength. When Kessler boxed he beat Froch to the punch, and Kessler aint that quick anymore.

Exactly what I was about to say, Froch had the same lost look on his face when he fought Dirrell, Taylor and in patches vs Kessler. When it's not a brawl or he's not in command, he looks a little sorry for himself, that's until Rob McCracken gives him a much needed lift and then he goes out and usually does the business i.e v Taylor!

stujones wrote:Disagree with the OP. Did he not turn up for 11 rounds against Taylor, or against Dirrel either? As you cannot say he put it on the line against these either (apart from the 12th against Taylor).

I would say Taylor, Dirrel and Ward are the three fastest guys he has faced, and all three gave him major major problems.

Froch looked marvelous against Abraham, fought inspired against Pascal and I was impressed against Johnson and in the later part of the Kessler fight (the first few rounds of that one were not fight of the year contenders). However, none of these fighters are particularly elusive and approached the fight fighting in a very conventional manner. It suited Froch's strength. When Kessler boxed he beat Froch to the punch, and Kessler aint that quick anymore.

Exactly my thoughts. Froch is a warrior but he just cannot cope with slick guys. He only looks good in wars or against slow guys. I love Froch by the way so this isn't hate. I think now he should only go for fights against lads he can have entertaining fights with. Rematches with Kessler and Pascal spring to mind.

crusader wrote:Froch is naturally slow of hand and foot; his lack of speed wasn't the result of an uninspired performance.

And perhaps Ward is surprised because he underrated his own abilities prior to the fight.

true frochh has incredibly slow hands and feet but what has got him this far is his underrated and lightning quick reflexes....thats probably why they call him cobra. ward wasnt really moving away, it was froch backing up....usually his reflexes r good enough to even counter as he slips......but ur right ward is very very good at what he does.....it just stinks out the joint

I don't think Froch underperformed, Ward was just far too good for him, just as he would be for most, if not all other fighters from 160-175lbs. I would LOVE to see Froch-Bute next. Bute and his team may favour that over taking on Ward right away, and Ward himself said he wanted a rest. Alternatively rematches against Kessler and Pascal would be awesome, and there's also a few big fights at 175lbs against the likes of Hopkins and Cleverly. I don't think the loss against Ward hurt Froch's marketability at all, he's still one of the most exciting guys out there, provided he's matched correctly.

What do people think of McCracken as a trainer. As a person he seems like a really good guy, but as a trainer I have to question his ability to adopt tactics and teach Froch new things.

In my opinion Froch has regressed technically over the years and fallen in love with the warrior/last man standing image. He's tough as old boots but he's proven to not be the puncher he thinks he is and just looks clumsy and akward at times.

I like Carl, and what he stands for, plus his professionalism when getting and staying in shape is second to none. But I wonder why hasn't he improved technically over the years? He still can't throw a hook correctly, misses wildly with the right hand and arm punches most of the time (see the Johnson fight). He even acknowledged his lack of practice and skill at in fighting.

He's a hard hard man, but he was always going to be outsmarted by Ward.

Some may point to the Abraham victory as Froch showing his versatility but all he did was jab jab back hand. It wasn't a masterclass in skill just one in control and patience.

Maybe McCraken is a good coach but Froch just chooses to ignore his advice. Is it too late in his career to mix things up?

Froch fought the wrong fight - he began by trying to outbox Ward, trying to win the battle of the jabs, throwing single shots which were easy for Ward to counter. I think it was a pride thing, rather like Hagler throwing away rounds trying to outbox Leonard.

Froch's only real chance was to try and rough Ward up and take him out of his comfort zone from the off, and throw bunches of shots to keep Ward off balance and backing up.

Personally, I think Ward would have had an answer for that too - he's just better than Froch in every department.

Like I said elsewhere, I think Ward is going to dominate the 168 lb division for some time to come - I reckon he's going to be a standout of his era, this is just the beginning.

stujones wrote:Disagree with the OP. Did he not turn up for 11 rounds against Taylor, or against Dirrel either? As you cannot say he put it on the line against these either (apart from the 12th against Taylor).

I would say Taylor, Dirrel and Ward are the three fastest guys he has faced, and all three gave him major major problems.

Froch looked marvelous against Abraham, fought inspired against Pascal and I was impressed against Johnson and in the later part of the Kessler fight (the first few rounds of that one were not fight of the year contenders). However, none of these fighters are particularly elusive and approached the fight fighting in a very conventional manner. It suited Froch's strength. When Kessler boxed he beat Froch to the punch, and Kessler aint that quick anymore.

Well imo jermaine taylor at his best (and he was still a very highly rated fighter going in with Froch , Pavlik was his only blemish and he had been competitive in that series) was a faster and more talented guy than Ward. People mistake wards defensive obsessions and fast reflexes and boxing skill with speed, he really isnt as fast as dirrel either. So Carl has dealt with faster guys before. I just think since the Abraham fight and we saw it with Johnson as well, Carl hasnt had the same intensity and do or die attitude he has boxed more at a pace...ward isnt neccesarily the most elusive, just the most defensive orientated spoiler out of the 3 u named.

Your comment that ""Did he not turn up for 11 rounds against Taylor, or against Dirrel either? As you cannot say he put it on the line against these either (apart from the 12th against Taylor)."
kind of defeats the point your trying to make and i say that respectfully.. go and watch the fight again , Carl was in terrible trouble throughout the fight, he had a determination and hunger in that fight that he didnt with ward, so he was having to fight harder to put it on the line and stay in with taylor than ward, because taylor ws faster and hit harder and had a real hope of kayoing carl and that sense of danger/fear spurred Carl on....going into this fight carl was so complacent he was already telling people "ward cant knock me out"...... Against Dirrel he still worked harder to put it on the line and stay in there, his reflexes were sharper. In fact go back further and watch the pascal and kessler fights too....Carl has always done best with that hard fighting war mentality mixed in with his boxing style the combo of both works best for him..... his best moments against ward were when he reverted to mixing in that style in the 11th and 12th....and to quote iain darke "froch is starting to walk through Wards shots"....thats the only way Carl was going to win.. by mixing more of that style with his boxing style, sadly last night that boxing style was sluggish as well. JUst the boxing style had worked with abraham and johnson against ward he needed more brawling, as wards spoiling and defensive nature was always gonna require carl to be at his best....he wasnt saturday night

I don't know mate, Pascal, Taylor and Dirrell were much faster than Froch. So it was only natural to assume Ward was going to be to. Carl likes to fight with his left hand low, so he can whip in uppercuts and stuff when a guy comes in. Whilst that worked at a lower level, British and Euro, its a flaw that does get exposed when in elite class.

So I don't think Forch lacked heart, will etc...his hands and feet are just too slow when fighting someone like Ward. There are ways in dealing with speed, faster fighters although on this occasion, it was not just speed but the strength too. Something Carl mentioned.

I think Froch probably needs to work on that as at this level as fast fighters trouble him. There are only so many times your will and heart can pull you through. Sooner or later, you will come unstuck.

MachoMan09 wrote:

mugabi wrote:i have said it, but few have backed what i said....the real froch didnt turn up, he wasnt as determined or hungry as he usually is, he didnt put it on the line like he has so many time, his reflexes were totally off, he flinched when he got hit a few times which was shocking...

Losing his hitherto unquestioned hunger, determination, reflexes and courage at precisely the moment the first bell tolls to start the defining fight of his life versus the most capable opponent he's ever faced. Of all the moments for a guy to be stricken, is there a worse one? I can remember a similar thing happening to Swindon when they were promoted to the Premier League back in 93/94.

well u could argue every single fight carl has had in the last 3 years has been his "defining fight of his life versus the most capable opponent he has ever faced"...pascal, taylor, dirrel, kessler,abraham, johnson...Carl had been in this situation and performed every time....i do think having made it to the final...he may have slightly subconsciously either over trained or lost his mental edge, I mean the "ward cant knock me out" comments, were perhaps a sign of that, or perhaps with all the accolades he was starting to get with the sky coverage, american attention as a finalist, or the postponement, or even just the fact he got a slow start and couldnt get back into it, or the fact ward he discovered hit harder than he thought....any one of them may have contributed to his being unable to go to the well once again.

If you follow sport you will know this can happen to even the best.....look at michael spinks, even Hatton was a better man than he showed with mayweather....none of this is to say these guys would have won......just maybe put in a better show.

I'll agree to disagree on two major points there Mugabi.

1) Froch handled Dirrell... I had Dirrell a comfortable winner.

2) Froch fought with intensity against Dirrell - the fight was a stinker. Dirrell fault, yes. But Froch didn't lay it on him vs Dirrell. Infact who was the fighter who finished the stronger. Many many times in that fight Froch just stood there, stalked a little bit without throwing anything. There are some "Froch rounds" (according to some) in which Dirrell seemed to "lose" cause he fell to his knee through Froch missing. Lets give the round to Froch goes Dirrell wants out, lets ignore the first two minutes in which Dirrell has actually got the centre of the ring and landing scoring (if not hard) jabs.

I've argued about close fights and debatable decisions in the super middleweight/light heavyweight division quite a bit this weekend - but that one, for my money, wasn't even close.

Yes, Froch did better against Taylor, still not enough to be winning the fight on the cards before the KO. I'm not one of those to call him lucky or question that win. Fantastic come from behind win, but he was losing and losing handily - so again, hardly dominated Taylor. I would disagree that Taylor is quicker than Ward or Dirrell. He's also a lot more conventional than these, with not so good footwork.

Froch did better against Kessler and Pascal - slower fighters who didn't try to have a jabbing contest with him.

yep mate we can agree to disagree and u argue your points well...

If thos etwo fought ten times, the result would be the same every time. Ward is simply too good for someone like Froch.

MachoMan09 wrote:

dbf wrote:What do people think of McCracken as a trainer. As a person he seems like a really good guy, but as a trainer I have to question his ability to adopt tactics and teach Froch new things.

In my opinion Froch has regressed technically over the years and fallen in love with the warrior/last man standing image. He's tough as old boots but he's proven to not be the puncher he thinks he is and just looks clumsy and akward at times.

I like Carl, and what he stands for, plus his professionalism when getting and staying in shape is second to none. But I wonder why hasn't he improved technically over the years? He still can't throw a hook correctly, misses wildly with the right hand and arm punches most of the time (see the Johnson fight). He even acknowledged his lack of practice and skill at in fighting.

He's a hard hard man, but he was always going to be outsmarted by Ward.

Some may point to the Abraham victory as Froch showing his versatility but all he did was jab jab back hand. It wasn't a masterclass in skill just one in control and patience.

Maybe McCraken is a good coach but Froch just chooses to ignore his advice. Is it too late in his career to mix things up?

Froch has found his level, that's all. A high level it is too. He's improved hugely over the years under McCracken. It's sometimes easy to try and look too hard for a reason as to why a guy came up short, when the answer is staring you in the face. You can't keep raising the ceiling forever.

I think you're right there and he can still be immensely proud at what he's achieved in the sport.

I mentioned this in the other thread, i think Froch is almost a Bully-esque boxer in the ring. As a result, he will struggle against Slick and quick boxers. Or against Boxers will wont fold under pressure.

Taylor got away with it for most of the bout, but Froch caught up with him in the end.
Dirrel gave Froch problems, but ultimately lost a close desicion.
Kessler simply wouldn't fold, and gave whatever he took.

Ward had pretty much all the tool the above 3 had, and it showed. Froch was clueless.

Can't fault his coach, at the end of the day Froch's biggest problem is his crap defense, and he has said that himself.

MachoMan09 wrote:

dbf wrote:What do people think of McCracken as a trainer. As a person he seems like a really good guy, but as a trainer I have to question his ability to adopt tactics and teach Froch new things.

In my opinion Froch has regressed technically over the years and fallen in love with the warrior/last man standing image. He's tough as old boots but he's proven to not be the puncher he thinks he is and just looks clumsy and akward at times.

I like Carl, and what he stands for, plus his professionalism when getting and staying in shape is second to none. But I wonder why hasn't he improved technically over the years? He still can't throw a hook correctly, misses wildly with the right hand and arm punches most of the time (see the Johnson fight). He even acknowledged his lack of practice and skill at in fighting.

He's a hard hard man, but he was always going to be outsmarted by Ward.

Some may point to the Abraham victory as Froch showing his versatility but all he did was jab jab back hand. It wasn't a masterclass in skill just one in control and patience.

Maybe McCraken is a good coach but Froch just chooses to ignore his advice. Is it too late in his career to mix things up?

Froch has found his level, that's all. A high level it is too. He's improved hugely over the years under McCracken. It's sometimes easy to try and look too hard for a reason as to why a guy came up short, when the answer is staring you in the face. You can't keep raising the ceiling forever.

He has found his level you are right, and there is no shame in that. With the fights he's had, and with his attitude I have nothing but respect for him. My point was more that he can only really fight one way which is sad really when you think he was a world class amateur with good boxing skill. I just feel he has neglected his skills and not worked on technique.

observer1 wrote:I mentioned this in the other thread, i think Froch is almost a Bully-esque boxer in the ring. As a result, he will struggle against Slick and quick boxers. Or against Boxers will wont fold under pressure.

Taylor got away with it for most of the bout, but Froch caught up with him in the end.
Dirrel gave Froch problems, but ultimately lost a close desicion.
Kessler simply wouldn't fold, and gave whatever he took.

Ward had pretty much all the tool the above 3 had, and it showed. Froch was clueless.

Can't fault his coach, at the end of the day Froch's biggest problem is his crap defense, and he has said that himself.

But surely the role of the coach is to use training to address problems such as having a poor defense?