BoxRec

Well, then?

Two bouts...a prime Dempsey vs. the best Cruiser and Heavy versions of Holyfield.

Great clash. I can see arguments for each.

Holyfield, 8 days a week. Oddly enough, I'd give Jack a slim shot against the Cruiser version. But he would be swimming up stream against Holy at virtually any point of their respective careers.

This fight would have to be at cruiserweight TBF.

The funny thing is Holyfield could win these easily, but his love of a tear-up could see him in hot water versus Dempsey, but ultimately, Holyfield's chin & conditioning would see through 2-0 in fights, with more than enough rocky moments to make Evander realise he'd been a a fight or two.

Two of my favourites and this would be one for the ages.

Very very hard to pick how this one might go.......I'm going to have to think this one over. This may well be the hardest mythical fight to predict that I've come across

A peak Dempsey is just too experienced for Holyfield during his CW days, IMO.

At HW, it gets harder.

At cruiser, it may be a pretty even fight. Tunney, on the other hand, would beat Holyfield since he was a much better boxer than Dempsey.

Dempsey at any weight . . Holyfield's defensive lapses and moments where he needed breathers at HW would get him in serious trouble. Dempsey would have far speed, stamina, and inside fighting skills than anyone Holyfield ever faced, whereas Dempsey fought several fighters (Miske,Sharkey) with superior boxing skills to Holyfield and who were just as strong.

dempseyfire wrote:Dempsey at any weight . . Holyfield's defensive lapses and moments where he needed breathers at HW would get him in serious trouble. Dempsey would have far speed, stamina, and inside fighting skills than anyone Holyfield ever faced, whereas Dempsey fought several fighters (Miske,Sharkey) with superior boxing skills to Holyfield and who were just as strong.

But the cruiser and early HW Holyfield (1987-1990) never needed a breather!

mugabi wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Dempsey at any weight . . Holyfield's defensive lapses and moments where he needed breathers at HW would get him in serious trouble. Dempsey would have far speed, stamina, and inside fighting skills than anyone Holyfield ever faced, whereas Dempsey fought several fighters (Miske,Sharkey) with superior boxing skills to Holyfield and who were just as strong.

But the cruiser and early HW Holyfield (1987-1990) never needed a breather!

Watch Evander vs Dokes, Foreman, Stewart I, Bowe, and even vs Qawi at 190 . . .all of those fights had several instances in which Evander seemed to just 'freeze' and let himself take punches. He would often come back with flurries after 20-30 seconds in his usual dramatic, crowd pleasing fashion, but he wouldn't be able to get away with this vs the all-time great HWs. If you look at Dempsey, he never pauses, he's always moving forward, working the body . . he didn't let guys rest and if you rested against him, he'd gut the body badly. That's another thing . . the heavyweights Evander fought were not great body punchers (Tyson by the time he fought EVander had turned into a head-hunter, although it's notable that his best moment vs Holyfield was in the 5th round of their first fight when he hurt Evander badly with a hook to the body); that was arguably Dempsey's greatest strength.

i just watched the dokes fight and you're right Dempsey even there in what was considered at the time a fast paced punchathon EH does indeed take some breaks now and than......so I agree on the fact I could very easily see Dempsey swarming all over EH for 15 rounds with EH also fighting back hard. I dont think a Holyfield on his toes would be able to get away at all, he used those tactics against old man foreman and bowe in the second fight this is someone unlike anything holyfield faced.....a teak tough iron man with remarkably stamina superior to EH in his prime, and a similar workrate.Where I have to ponder further is, does dempsey with even his pulverising power have the ability to put EH away, the same EH who stood up to Lewis, and a shot Tysons punches , not to mention some decent digs against old man Foreman and Mercer.....than i remember the trouble Cooper and Bowe had Holyfield in , and I am sure Dempsey could do what they did...and worse........

Ok i see this being a real pier 6 brawl for 5-6 rounds, than Holyfield would try to butt, maul and punch low.....this would become Jacks kind of fight, and Dempsey would bust up and outmaul Holyfield before crushing his jaw in the 13th with a huge left hook.......Dempsey tko 13.

BarryWashington wrote:a more interesting match-up (for me) would be Dwight Muhammad Qawi (circa first Holyfield fight) vs. Dempsey (at CW).

but dempsey/holyfield at CW - draw
dempsey/holyfield at HW - i'll take holy at 8-6-1.

Dempsey would destroy Qawi within 6 rounds, not even close. Qawi was not a great fighter above 175 . . his whole legacy there is based on losing a war to a incredibly green Evander and beating a shot Leon Spinks. If Holyfield had gotten more seasoned before fighting Qawi, it would've not been as competitive (and as it was, I don't think the fight points wise was that close anyway).

So far as Holy goes, the closest opponent he fought would have to be the old Tyson he fought. I think it is extremely relevant that the Old Tyson was winning the fight early on, before he seemed to gas and Evander eventually wore him out. I cant see Evander doing this to Dempsey, when in his prime. And I cant really see Evander stopping him. His best chance is probably to box at a distance like he did against Foreman, but Dempsey is an awful lot faster than Old Foreman. Somewhere, Evander is going to stand his ground and try to outmuscle Dempsey, but this will only result in Dempsey being able to hit him cleanly and harder. I think it would be his downfall. Evander, of course, makes life very difficult for Dempsey, as he would for anyone, but I feel pretty confident dempsey scores the win in this one. In a fight that looks much like Holyfield Tyson I, but with Dempsey rather than Holyfield taking over as the fight progresses. A stoppage arund the 9th or 10th seems likely but it wouldnt surprise in the slightest to see Evander finish the fight on his feet losing a close but decisive decision.

Boilermaker wrote: I think it is extremely relevant that the Old Tyson was winning the fight early on,

LOL, he won 1 or 2 rounds in the entire fight. The first round definitely wasn't one of them. You can't even be serious. His best round was the fifth and then Evander dumped him, off balanced as he was, in the sixth and Tyson went into his take his beating like a man mode. He was beaten mentally more than he gassed.

Boilermaker wrote:So far as Holy goes, the closest opponent he fought would have to be the old Tyson he fought. I think it is extremely relevant that the Old Tyson was winning the fight early on, before he seemed to gas and Evander eventually wore him out. I cant see Evander doing this to Dempsey, when in his prime. And I cant really see Evander stopping him. His best chance is probably to box at a distance like he did against Foreman, but Dempsey is an awful lot faster than Old Foreman. Somewhere, Evander is going to stand his ground and try to outmuscle Dempsey, but this will only result in Dempsey being able to hit him cleanly and harder. I think it would be his downfall. Evander, of course, makes life very difficult for Dempsey, as he would for anyone, but I feel pretty confident dempsey scores the win in this one. In a fight that looks much like Holyfield Tyson I, but with Dempsey rather than Holyfield taking over as the fight progresses. A stoppage arund the 9th or 10th seems likely but it wouldnt surprise in the slightest to see Evander finish the fight on his feet losing a close but decisive decision.

Pretty much how i described it. The same way Holyfield swung the first tyson fight around the 5th, Dempsey would do the same , but perhaps around the 6yj or 7th, Dempsey would batter and brutalise EH from than on. Holyfields first fight with Tyson was dead even around the 5th and a very competitive fight even though Tyson was totally shot. The headbutt and Tysons subsequent freaking out at the blood, just ended the fight as a competition, the knockdown was a consequence of the headbutt and a dazed Tyson still freaked out. But as much as i love EH he would be in with a prime Dempsey and not a shot Tyson...

mugabi wrote:

Boilermaker wrote:So far as Holy goes, the closest opponent he fought would have to be the old Tyson he fought. I think it is extremely relevant that the Old Tyson was winning the fight early on, before he seemed to gas and Evander eventually wore him out. I cant see Evander doing this to Dempsey, when in his prime. And I cant really see Evander stopping him. His best chance is probably to box at a distance like he did against Foreman, but Dempsey is an awful lot faster than Old Foreman. Somewhere, Evander is going to stand his ground and try to outmuscle Dempsey, but this will only result in Dempsey being able to hit him cleanly and harder. I think it would be his downfall. Evander, of course, makes life very difficult for Dempsey, as he would for anyone, but I feel pretty confident dempsey scores the win in this one. In a fight that looks much like Holyfield Tyson I, but with Dempsey rather than Holyfield taking over as the fight progresses. A stoppage arund the 9th or 10th seems likely but it wouldnt surprise in the slightest to see Evander finish the fight on his feet losing a close but decisive decision.

Pretty much how i described it. The same way Holyfield swung the first tyson fight around the 5th, Dempsey would do the same , but perhaps around the 6yj or 7th, Dempsey would batter and brutalise EH from than on. Holyfields first fight with Tyson was dead even around the 5th and a very competitive fight even though Tyson was totally shot. The headbutt and Tysons subsequent freaking out at the blood, just ended the fight as a competition, the knockdown was a consequence of the headbutt and a dazed Tyson still freaked out. But as much as i love EH he would be in with a prime Dempsey and not a shot Tyson...

How was Tyson totally shot vs. Holyfield? He was favored to win the fight and no one though he was shot. He had slipped some but he was far from shot as evident by the fight it self.

I don't believe Tyson was 'shot' but he was definitely well past his best . .the Cus style is meant for a young boxer with young legs in their early-mid 20s. Tyson out of prison and a 3+ year layoff was surviving off his still first-rate power, athleticism, and aura of intimidation moreso than boxing skills (Seldon and Bruno were beaten before the first bell rang, and Mathis/Cocoon of Horror were just journeyman). Look at him in his first fight post-Holyfield . . he was getting taken to school by Frans Botha for crying out loud.

I also don't think Tyson was ever 'winning' the Holyfield fight. I gave him the 1st and 5th with either the 3rd or 4th even due to EVander's incessant clinching and Mike's lack of doing anything effective.

That said, I don't even think the convo is that relevant to the discussion b/c a peak Dempsey was several leagues above a 1996 Tyson.

They were both past their best. Agreed it isn't relevant to this fight, LOL at Mike winning the first round.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Boilermaker wrote: I think it is extremely relevant that the Old Tyson was winning the fight early on,

LOL, he won 1 or 2 rounds in the entire fight. The first round definitely wasn't one of them. You can't even be serious. His best round was the fifth and then Evander dumped him, off balanced as he was, in the sixth and Tyson went into his take his beating like a man mode. He was beaten mentally more than he gassed.

I just rewatched the first round to make sure that my memory didnt fail me. Holyfield landed one good combination in the round maybe 2 or 3 punches at best. Mike landed about 10 or more good hard and solid punches or combos. With hindsight though, Tyson does seem to be breathing heavy. This is definitely not prime Tyson, but there is no way round one is anything but Tyson's round. Maybe you should rewatch before responding, though.

After about 10 secs of the second round, it looks like a much closer round with both landing decent shots, although Tyson still looks to be landing the harder/ cleaner shots.

First your memory failed you and now your eyes have done the same. Tyson opened with a right and Evander immediately landed a better one. I've seen it many times, no need to watch it again. Evander clearly took the first, no doubt about it.

Watching round 2, it is a lot closer. Holyfield did manage at one stage to use his jab to set up some big shots, which seemed to trouble Tyson a little bit at one stage, but Tyson still was landing his share of decent shots as well. Would have to give that round to Holyfield, but it was close, certainly closer than the first, although admittedly Tyson was in more trouble when hit by Holy during that small patch.

Rnd 3 looks pretty even. Neither landed too much. Holyfield had one or two slightly better moments, and Mike was looking very tired, but it has to be a pretty even round.

Rnd 4 is a tough one to score. Not much either way but Tyson slightly better, although it should be noticed that Evander was really pushing Tyson around and mauling hm which was really slowing him down.

Rnd 5 Starts great for Evander with his left establishing an advantage and evander looking to box a bit more, but Tyson swarms back some good hooks. The hook really is Tyson's fight. He looks like a less skilled version of Joe Frazier in this one. Definitely a Tyson round, despite evander still pushing him back constantly.

Rnd 6 a reasonably close round, where Evander was clearly overpowering Tyson in the wrestle, and landing some rubbing headbutts. Tyson, i though was giving a little better than he was taking, until caught with one of the best short left hands i have seen Evander throw after evander ducked a Tyson hook. Tyson was a little off balance, but it was a huge shot. Evander started to dominate from this point of the round. Easy Evander round in the end. Tyson looking in trouble but not completely gone, but very tired.

Rnd 7 is pretty close. It is quite obvious that when evander punches straight and hard, he troubles Tyson. In contrast, Tyson's left hooks are damaging, but he is not really setting them up that well. He is ducking and weaving quite well, but too tired to follow up with meaningful combos. Holyfield lands easily the second best blow of the night with a powerful headbutt right on the jaw that really stopped Tyson in his tracks and seemed to hurt him. Although i have to say, looking at the slo mo replay, it may have been a retaliatory headbutt as Tyson did seem to lead with the head.

Rnd 8. Tyson looks worn out. His punches lacking any power compared to earlier now. Evander lands a couple of good shots. It is also plain that evander is much better, when uses his straight punches and boxes at a distance. If he did this, like he did with Foreman, i think he has a much easier night in this one.

Rnd 9 and Tyson looks gone. He is not throwing as often and he doesnt have anywhere near the power. Evander looks really good when he fights at range but also is now landing some great short stuff. Tyson seems exhausted.

Rnd 10 Tyson throws and lands quite a lot early, but it is clear that there is no steam behind his punches. he is shading the round though, until evander lands the huge right hand and follow up combinations at the end of the round.

Rnd 11 Holyfield lands clean and finishes him off.

Tyson was clearly very poorly conditioned in this fight, imo. Although obviously Evander had to be and was good enough to wear Tyson down and win the fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:They were both past their best. Agreed it isn't relevant to this fight, LOL at Mike winning the first round.

As I recall pretty much all of ringside scored the first for Tyson, so you are on your own island here. It was a fairly close round but to somehow believe it was one-sided for Holyfield just shows how off the wall your Evander bias is. Tyson's right hand in the opening seconds knocked Evander across the ring and EVander's return right hand MISSED so your statement that "Tyson opened with a right and Evander immediately landed a better one" is completly illogical and shows your EVander love is out of control . .

Everyone can see it here for themselves at the 7 minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Hm0dTTO2s

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:They were both past their best. Agreed it isn't relevant to this fight, LOL at Mike winning the first round.

As I recall pretty much all of ringside scored the first for Tyson, so you are on your own island here. It was a fairly close round but to somehow believe it was one-sided for Holyfield just shows how off the wall your Evander bias is. Tyson's right hand in the opening seconds knocked Evander across the ring and EVander's return right hand MISSED so your statement that "Tyson opened with a right and Evander immediately landed a better one" is completly illogical and shows your EVander love is out of control . .

Everyone can see it here for themselves at the 7 minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Hm0dTTO2s

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:They were both past their best. Agreed it isn't relevant to this fight, LOL at Mike winning the first round.

As I recall pretty much all of ringside scored the first for Tyson, so you are on your own island here. It was a fairly close round but to somehow believe it was one-sided for Holyfield just shows how off the wall your Evander bias is. Tyson's right hand in the opening seconds knocked Evander across the ring and EVander's return right hand MISSED so your statement that "Tyson opened with a right and Evander immediately landed a better one" is completly illogical and shows your EVander love is out of control . .

Everyone can see it here for themselves at the 7 minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Hm0dTTO2s

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I cant believe i just wasted my time rewatching the whole fight just to see if what you were saying was right. If you cant be bothered looking at the video to see where you are wrong, why does anyone bother?

You surely dont dispute what was just written above. Tyson lands with a right hand (and follows up with a left). Evander then misses with his right hand (although he does execute the right clinch effectively I suppose). Which part do you not agree with, it has been placed in a link for you to watch.

Boilermaker wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: As I recall pretty much all of ringside scored the first for Tyson, so you are on your own island here. It was a fairly close round but to somehow believe it was one-sided for Holyfield just shows how off the wall your Evander bias is. Tyson's right hand in the opening seconds knocked Evander across the ring and EVander's return right hand MISSED so your statement that "Tyson opened with a right and Evander immediately landed a better one" is completly illogical and shows your EVander love is out of control . .

Everyone can see it here for themselves at the 7 minute mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Hm0dTTO2s

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I cant believe i just wasted my time rewatching the whole fight just to see if what you were saying was right. If you cant be bothered looking at the video to see where you are wrong, why does anyone bother?

You surely dont dispute what was just written above. Tyson lands with a right hand (and follows up with a left). Evander then misses with his right hand (although he does execute the right clinch effectively I suppose). Which part do you not agree with, it has been placed in a link for you to watch.

I've seen it 30 times. I definitely dispute what was stated above. Tyson landed a right and Evander countered with one of his own.

But it's nice that you spent an hour of your time over me. And though I'm flattered, I wouldn't spend 3 minutes for you.

Of course you do mean that Tyson opened with a right and a left - Dont you?

If that is your opinion of the opening exchange than it is obvious that zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz was referring to what you were doing each time you watched it. If you cant be bothered looking at a link to see where you are wrong, there really is no point in discussing things. You dont read news articles, you dont look at videos. You basically pick a random opinion based on a hunch and go with it. I do believe that is the very meaning of the word troll. Except most of the trolls I see are at least a little bit inventive with their views.