BoxRec

In the first Frazier fight he called him Clay throughout, but by Foreman he was Ali.

Any ideas?

Bit of an odd one on Carpenter's part considering they had a good relationship. Ali clearly didn't like people using his 'Slave name'. Ernie Terrell discovered that.

The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

JDC wrote:The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

Ali grew up in a time where he was a second class citizen. People looked down at him because he was Black. Can you imagine if you and your family couldn't do a simple thing like eat at a restaurant because of your skin color?

He played the game to get publicity, and did what he thought was best for the Black civil rights movement.

His 'hostility' was only against those white people who called him "Clay" out of spite with racial undertones, and against the blacks who called him "Clay" as it was counter productive to his arguments.

Carpenter was not political, and was only looking at the sports angel, hence Ali couldn't care less since he knew Carpenter was probably genuine.

Harry was responsible for saying 'PUBLIC WARNING'. when there is no such thing in boxing, a warning yes, from the ref to a boxer. but not a 'PUBLIC WARNING', unless someone from the paying public wanted to give the Boxer a warning,

ERIC GUY wrote:Harry was responsible for saying 'PUBLIC WARNING'. when there is no such thing in boxing, a warning yes, from the ref to a boxer. but not a 'PUBLIC WARNING', unless someone from the paying public wanted to give the Boxer a warning,

Of course there are public warnings in boxing.

A warning is telling a fighter off, a public warning, which is usually just refered to in pro boxing these days as "taking points off" (but still in amateur boxing as a public warning). It used to be 3 public warnings and you were disqualified.

"The Referee may make remarks to the Boxers during the course of a round without this being an indication of faults calling for a public warning. It is for the Referee to decide whether to give a Boxer a public warning or disqualify him"

observer1 wrote:

JDC wrote:The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

Ali grew up in a time where he was a second class citizen. People looked down at him because he was Black. Can you imagine if you and your family couldn't do a simple thing like eat at a restaurant because of your skin color?

He played the game to get publicity, and did what he thought was best for the Black civil rights movement.

His 'hostility' was only against those white people who called him "Clay" out of spite with racial undertones, and against the blacks who called him "Clay" as it was counter productive to his arguments.

Carpenter was not political, and was only looking at the sports angel, hence Ali couldn't care less since he knew Carpenter was probably genuine.

Agreed, but the OP isn't about racist white men. It's about the difference in Ali's reaction to Carpenter, when compared with Ernie Terrell. The reasons for his beliefs aren't in question.

Nat Fleischer was someone who referred to Ali as Clay, as late as 1971 .
Nat never rated Ali that good anyway, for whatever reason was behind it. From the Ring magazine in September 1971 is an article written by Nat called
"Clay an All-time Top 10? Definitely No!".

This was after Ali had lost to Frazier and had been calling himself Muhammed Ali for 7 years. Now some may say it was because of Ali's muslim background or the colour of his skin, but in the same article Nat rated Jack Johnson as the best heavyweight ever.

Fleischer was an old man by then and didn't like this uppity, loud mouth Muslim. I don't think he was giving Ali a fair chance.

JDC wrote:

observer1 wrote:

JDC wrote:The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

Ali grew up in a time where he was a second class citizen. People looked down at him because he was Black. Can you imagine if you and your family couldn't do a simple thing like eat at a restaurant because of your skin color?

He played the game to get publicity, and did what he thought was best for the Black civil rights movement.

His 'hostility' was only against those white people who called him "Clay" out of spite with racial undertones, and against the blacks who called him "Clay" as it was counter productive to his arguments.

Carpenter was not political, and was only looking at the sports angel, hence Ali couldn't care less since he knew Carpenter was probably genuine.

Agreed, but the OP isn't about racist white men. It's about the difference in Ali's reaction to Carpenter, when compared with Ernie Terrell. The reasons for his beliefs aren't in question.

like i said in the last 2 sentences. Whether white or black, so long as comments were not hostile, he didnt mind

Old bones Ian wrote:Nat Fleischer was someone who referred to Ali as Clay, as late as 1971 .
Nat never rated Ali that good anyway, for whatever reason was behind it. From the Ring magazine in September 1971 is an article written by Nat called
"Clay an All-time Top 10? Definitely No!".

This was after Ali had lost to Frazier and had been calling himself Muhammed Ali for 7 years.

But since losing to Frazier, Ali went on to defeat Frazier twice, beat Foremand and become a 3-time World Champion... He achieved a helluva lot in his career since that article.

Crease wrote:

Old bones Ian wrote:Nat Fleischer was someone who referred to Ali as Clay, as late as 1971 .
Nat never rated Ali that good anyway, for whatever reason was behind it. From the Ring magazine in September 1971 is an article written by Nat called
"Clay an All-time Top 10? Definitely No!".

This was after Ali had lost to Frazier and had been calling himself Muhammed Ali for 7 years.

But since losing to Frazier, Ali went on to defeat Frazier twice, beat Foremand and become a 3-time World Champion... He achieved a helluva lot in his career since that article.

I agree that had Nat lived to see Ali go through his career he might of rated him higher, who knows.
out of interest here is Nat's top 10 from 1971

1. Jack Johnson
2. Jim Jeffries
3. Bob Fitzsimmons
4. Jack Dempsey
5. James J. Corbett
6. Joe Louis
7. Sam Langford
8. Gene Tunney
9. Max Schmeling
10. Rocky Marciano.

I never got the impression that Carpenter was calling Ali "Clay" was more to do with the fact he was one of the most famous guys on the planet when he was Cassius Clay and it was difficult to adjust to the change of the name - more so than a "rejection" from Carpenter about Ali's decision.

Its just my take - it would be like Madonna stating she wouldn't like to be called Madonna anymore..... made it difficult to work. Harry Carpenter has spent many years with the guy when he was Clay, must have been difficult to adjust.

stujones wrote:I never got the impression that Carpenter was calling Ali "Clay" was more to do with the fact he was one of the most famous guys on the planet when he was Cassius Clay and it was difficult to adjust to the change of the name - more so than a "rejection" from Carpenter about Ali's decision.

Its just my take - it would be like Madonna stating she wouldn't like to be called Madonna anymore..... made it difficult to work. Harry Carpenter has spent many years with the guy when he was Clay, must have been difficult to adjust.

That's the way I see it.

observer1 wrote:

JDC wrote:The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

Ali grew up in a time where he was a second class citizen. People looked down at him because he was Black. Can you imagine if you and your family couldn't do a simple thing like eat at a restaurant because of your skin color?

He played the game to get publicity, and did what he thought was best for the Black civil rights movement.

His 'hostility' was only against those white people who called him "Clay" out of spite with racial undertones, and against the blacks who called him "Clay" as it was counter productive to his arguments.

Carpenter was not political, and was only looking at the sports angel, hence Ali couldn't care less since he knew Carpenter was probably genuine.

Ive never seen a man in his prime have the ego and superiority complex Ali had in his 70s prime. He was the most blasphemous man Ive heard just before his health deterioted around 79. He was saying things just before than in 78 even, that would make any true christian and muslim shudder with horror .

mugabi wrote:

observer1 wrote:

JDC wrote:The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

Ali grew up in a time where he was a second class citizen. People looked down at him because he was Black. Can you imagine if you and your family couldn't do a simple thing like eat at a restaurant because of your skin color?

He played the game to get publicity, and did what he thought was best for the Black civil rights movement.

His 'hostility' was only against those white people who called him "Clay" out of spite with racial undertones, and against the blacks who called him "Clay" as it was counter productive to his arguments.

Carpenter was not political, and was only looking at the sports angel, hence Ali couldn't care less since he knew Carpenter was probably genuine.

Ive never seen a man in his prime have the ego and superiority complex Ali had in his 70s prime. He was the most blasphemous man Ive heard just before his health deterioted around 79. He was saying things just before than in 78 even, that would make any true christian and muslim shudder with horror .

Interesting point, imagaine if Ali was boxing today, with what has happened in the world, would he end up vilified like Anthony Small?

But Ali made no secret of the fact that he had completely renounced "Clay", so I find it curious that Carpenter didn't ensure he respected his wishes. I don't accept that it was a memory issue.

JDC wrote:The thing is; did Clay/Ali actually mean half the things he said?

He'd claimed 'it was all publicity'' subsequently. Obviously his claims were based on his beliefs, but the strength of them could change depending on the circumstances. As you say, he had a strong relationship with Carpenter. Sure he could have got publicity by attacking Carpenter or Parkinson or Wogan, but these men were on his side and he knew the benefits of keeping it that way.

His relationship with Terrell and Frazier was different, as would be his reaction.

Post of the week, well done.

Ali was the master of manipulation, he knew how to sell a fight.

The reason he is widely regarded as the greatest sportsman of the 20th century, is mainly down to the way he could manipulate certain events and create amazing stories.



He learned it all from wrestling, watching Gorgeous George, i seem to remember.

MachoMan09 wrote:

Old bones Ian wrote:Interesting point, imagaine if Ali was boxing today, with what has happened in the world, would he end up vilified like Anthony Small?

Times have changed. Had a child been born in Louisville, Kentucky in 1982, rather than 1942, with exactly the same physical and mental characteristics as Ali, he'd likely take a very different path than the one the lad born Cassius Clay ultimately did. He'd almost certainly not be a boxer. He'd almost certainly not get involved in a hotchpotch Islamic group that burns poppies and uploads rambling YouTube videos.

I went to Uni with a lad who over the course of one summer, went from not believing in god at all to a Taliban, wrath of god type. He ended up in one of those groups, his most striking characteristc was that he was as thick as pig shit and quite spectacularly poorly informed.

He knew less about Islam than my Grandmother.

Still, he looked happy enough shouting slogans in front of the Student Union during lunch time.

gobbles wrote:

ERIC GUY wrote:Harry was responsible for saying 'PUBLIC WARNING'. when there is no such thing in boxing, a warning yes, from the ref to a boxer. but not a 'PUBLIC WARNING', unless someone from the paying public wanted to give the Boxer a warning,

Of course there are public warnings in boxing.

A warning is telling a fighter off, a public warning, which is usually just refered to in pro boxing these days as "taking points off" (but still in amateur boxing as a public warning). It used to be 3 public warnings and you were disqualified.

"The Referee may make remarks to the Boxers during the course of a round without this being an indication of faults calling for a public warning. It is for the Referee to decide whether to give a Boxer a public warning or disqualify him"

where did you get this from?