BoxRec

Wlad Klitschko
Vitali Klitschko
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis

Mutt and Jeff fights every one.....lol

...and at least against foreman, mutt wins. kayo.

Jaclem wrote:...and at least against foreman, mutt wins. kayo.

How can mutt win when he gets carried out on a stretcher?

Too much Jeff in this one.

Loses to all. Worst loss would be to Foreman. Absolute massacre.

I REALLY hate to say this about the Klitschko's (especially big brother), but they each beat Marciano.

Lewis and Foreman do so every day of the week.

theone wrote:Loses to all. Worst loss would be to Foreman. Absolute massacre.

Christ alive, can you imagine Foreman coming along as a challenger in the 50's when Marciano was champ and at the height of his popularity? A ref from that age not wanting to believe Marciano couldnt take it might get him brain-damaged.

I wonder what the limits of Marciano's courage (and the guy deserves every word of praise in that regard --- what he did against Charles was one of THE definitive acts of heart and will in history) really were, because Foreman would test them to absolute breaking point.

Would Marciano rise from six knockdowns? Ultimately unanswerable. No question (almost) he'd lose, though. The fight, his rep for indestructability, and his senses.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

theone wrote:Loses to all. Worst loss would be to Foreman. Absolute massacre.

Christ alive, can you imagine Foreman coming along as a challenger in the 50's when Marciano was champ and at the height of his popularity? A ref from that age not wanting to believe Marciano couldnt take it might get him brain-damaged.

I wonder what the limits of Marciano's courage (and the guy deserves every word of praise in that regard --- what he did against Charles was one of THE definitive acts of heart and will in history) really were, because Foreman would test them to absolute breaking point.

Would Marciano rise from six knockdowns? Ultimately unanswerable. No question (almost) he'd lose, though. The fight, his rep for indestructability, and his senses.

It may be "ultimately unanswerable", but why should that stop me?

The answer is "no". He is counted out after the 2nd knockdown.

but....but....he NEVER LOST A SINGLE FIGHT......go back and read his record.


UNDEFEATED + 49 Pro bouts = UNDEFEATABLE

so now would any of you like to try again? This time taking into account the BIG ZERO? THE ZILCH? THE NADA?

Your asundry apologies will be accepted in the order recieved.

btw, and I know we are talking hypothetical match-ups, but I don't think Rocky would have ever gotten in the ring with a prime Foreman. Nothing against Rocky's courage, but I think his management would have been smart and strongly counselled against it.

I always wondered why Frazier's camp sent him in with Foreman. I was a college kid back then but from afar I knew Foreman might be real trouble. Frazier's camp compounded the error by taking George lightly.

If one is basically hanging around for one more big payday with Ali, I would think Frazier's camp could have found someone a little less dangerous than Foreman.

Such as as fading Floyd Patterson. It would have made some $$$, with far less danger.

BoxBuzz wrote:but....but....he NEVER LOST A SINGLE FIGHT......go back and read his record.


UNDEFEATED + 49 Pro bouts = UNDEFEATABLE

so now would any of you like to try again? This time taking into account the BIG ZERO? THE ZILCH? THE NADA?

Your asundry apologies will be accepted in the order recieved.

You are right. I apologize.

In reality, the Rock would have knocked out those four clowns in one round each, on the SAME night.

Then he would have grabbed a beer and got some shut eye.

A legend has got to get some rest, you know.

yancey wrote:btw, and I know we are talking hypothetical match-ups, but I don't think Rocky would have ever gotten in the ring with a prime Foreman. Nothing against Rocky's courage, but I think his management would have been smart and strongly counselled against it.

I always wondered why Frazier's camp sent him in with Foreman. I was a college kid back then but from afar I knew Foreman might be real trouble. Frazier's camp compounded the error by taking George lightly.

If one is basically hanging around for one more big payday with Ali, I would think Frazier's camp could have found someone a little less dangerous than Foreman.

Such as as fading Floyd Patterson. It would have made some $$$, with far less danger.

Not around then but my understanding is Foreman was not considered THAT dangerous at the time.

....Peralta showed the way to deal with Big George, and Ali must have payed close attention to that fight when preparing. Joe could not (make that "would not") fight anyone in a "Peralta" style.......Joe never had a reverse gear installed at the factory. He figured he'd never need it. He also figured his eyesight would improve with age.

Ali fought nothing like Peralta against Foreman, though.

One thing I forever hear and never understand is people pointing to Ali when stating Foreman had trouble with movers. Huh!? Isnt this one of the most famous, replayed, and readily accessible bouts in history? Ali did not remotely beat Foreman with movement.

loses to all four

I would really love to know Marciano and Goldman's strategies for these bouts.

Goldman was a great cornerman and Marciano was always interesting to listen to in regards to his analysis of foes.

GI, I do think that Peralta was an indicator, you take that fight, and "spin" it into Aliistics. There was much to be preened in my estimation. Not mimicked. And you are right, he only had George in the middle of the ring for a fraction of the time during the whole fight. Which of course gave everyone reason to believe it was going to be a short night, and spell a bad night for Muhammad.

At the same time, three things jump out at me to explain the miscalculation...

1. Muhammad Ali

Always making so much noise, he HAD to take a lot of attention away from other contenders of the day. He was front and center in Frazier's mind, and I dont doubt Durham's, too (although I have read without confirmation Durham needed convincing to make the Foreman bout?).

2. Frazier's record

Just SO much easier to see a guy losing AFTER it happens, even if they have patent vulnerabilities.

3. Foreman's competition

It wasnt bad, and he'd flat killed most comers, but take a look --- theres no one within a MILLION MILES of Frazier's class.

It would look like when the fictional Rocky fought the Big Russian, Ivan Drago, before the Hollywood schmaltz set in.

Yeah, I know the Klits are Ukranian but I was making a point.

Marciano vs Dempsey would be a bloody watch.

Since both men are of the same style, the harder puncher has a miassive advantage, in my eyes that's Rocky Marciano...

I would also point to the fact that Dempsey often fought 10 rounders, whereas Marciano could keep going up to 15 rounds.


Saying that, I don't think the fight goes that far, Dempsey has his mkoments, but The Rock KOs him.

Crease wrote:I would also point to the fact that Dempsey often fought 10 rounders, whereas Marciano could keep going up to 15 rounds.

Actually they both went 15 rounds only once in there careers.

Dempsey fought in 9 scheduled 15 round fights and another 1 scheduled for 20 rounds. Rocky fought in 7 scheduled 15 rounders.

When I was a kid, late 1950's early 1960's, the experts had Dempsey as #1 by a wide margin, as time went on, Louis took that over and now most feel that Ali is.

In 1950, the Associated Press conducted a poll of sportswriters to name the greatest fighter of all-time, pound-for-pound, and Dempsey was the runaway winner, collecting 251 votes. [Joe Louis finished a distant second with 104 votes; Henry Armstrong was third with 16.]

Note: the article below has Dempsey with 253 Louis 109 and Armstrong with 13, BUT I have 251, 104 and 16.

He was also voted 3rd, behind Jim Thorpe and Babe Ruth, as the Greatest male athlete in the 1st half century.

In the Dec 1962 Ring magazine Jack Dempsey was rated #1, and Joe Louis #2, Jack Johnson #3 and Marciano was a distant #6.

In 1991, Bert Sugar had Dempsey the top Heavyweight of all-times, now he has him at #3, behind Louis and Ali.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/dempsey.html

One thing I learned from Bert Sugar, and that is to listen to the old-timers, because they have a lot of knowledge. I talked to Ray Arcel and he had Dempsey rated very high as well.

DetroitHxC wrote:Is it too much of a stretch to imagine Foreman gassing from attacking Marciano, like he did against Ali, and getting stopped himself?

I think it is. Ali's height, long arms, (relative to Marciano's) and quick counter punching, contributed greatly to Ali withstanding the assault. Marciano, with his style and physical attributes would be defenseless in comparison.

One thing I learned from Bert Sugar, and that is to listen to the old-timers, because they have a lot of knowledge. I talked to Ray Arcel and he had Dempsey rated very high as well.

Alot of knowledge and plenty of bias as well.

If I recall, granberry felt that you could always count on Sugar to be fair, competent and accurate in any assessment.

Alot of knowledge and plenty of bias as well.

Well, Bert Sugar did rate Dempsey as #1, But now he rates him at #3 (#1 Louis, #2 Ali & #3 Dempsey). I asked him about that and he stated that he learned to listen to people that had a lot of knowledge on the subject.

Crease wrote:Marciano vs Dempsey would be a bloody watch.

Since both men are of the same style, the harder puncher has a miassive advantage, in my eyes that's Rocky Marciano...

I would also point to the fact that Dempsey often fought 10 rounders, whereas Marciano could keep going up to 15 rounds.


Saying that, I don't think the fight goes that far, Dempsey has his mkoments, but The Rock KOs him.

If a prime Jack Dempsey 1919-23 would ever lose a bout it would be to a boxer mover type,ala Tunney, Ali, or to the greatest combo puncher ever Joe Louis. Marciano would be a good opponent for Dempsey. I saw Marciano/Vingo at MSG and saw Marciano train. He missed half his punches, and could be hit. Dempsey was as fast as a WW, in his prime,and was a deadly two handed puncher who
would always beat Rocky to the punch, and whoever the peak Dempsey hits, he destroys.
Speed kills in boxing, and the Manassa Mauler hit as hard as Marciano, and twice as fast.
Today's boxing fans watch the Dempsey of the Gene Tunney fights, when a Jack Dempsey ,THREE years out of the ring, sans a TUNE-UP bout, without his mentor Tex Rickard ,and on top of this ,the 32 year old Dempsey just lost his brother Bernie who committed suicide just prior to the Tunney fight.
This was NOT the Jack Dempsey of his destructive prime, but a slow moving 32 year old shell of himself. I loved Rocky Marciano, but Dempsey kos the much slower Marciano, as the writers who
saw Dempsey and Marciano ,by a great majority concurred. Speed Kills...