BoxRec

This is who I'd say. #1 through #8. As to why. ---

1. Sugar Ray Robinson. --- Robinson had the perfect physical build, conditioning & balance. These attributes gave Robinson the physical ability to rank right up at the VERY top for professional boxings pound for pound category.

Ray wasn't the fastest boxer. He wasn't the hardest puncher. But, he had the perfect height, reach, build, conditioning & balance for the boxing style which he utilized, the "boxer-puncher" style. Especially for the weight divisions which Ray fought at for his pro career, welterweight & middleweight. Ray was the boxer-puncher supreme. For Rays defense, he had excellent footwork & torso / waist movement.

Robinson had good punching power & punch combinations. He also had a very good counter punching ability.

Actually, Robinson could even knockout his opponents as he was going backwards.


Ray started his pro career out as a welterweight. He ended his career at what would today be considered super middleweight.



2. Tony Canzoneri. ---- Tony had SUPERHUMAN chin strength. The rest of his body had a SUPERHUMAN threshold of pain.

In Tonys 190 professional fight career, he was NEVER knocked out. He was knocked down only twice. This was in his very last fight of his pro career. He also had TREMENDOUS punching power for non-heavyweight. Tony utilized 3 different boxing styles throughout his amateur & pro career. They were the boxer-puncher style, swarmer style & the slugger style.

Tony started his pro career as a bantamweight. He ended his career at what would today be considered super welterweight.


3. Benny Leonard. --- Benny utilized 2 different boxing styles throughout his career. They were the master-boxer style & the boxer-puncher style. Benny pretty much had ALL of the attributes such as what Sugar Ray Robinson had.

But, Benny was shorter than Robinson. Benny started his career out as a lightweight. He ended his career as a middleweight.

Benny Leonard & Tony Canzoneri were the first pro boxers who "mastered the weight". By mastering the weight, this entails where a boxer makes the weight for the weigh in within his respective weight division. But, on the day of the fight, the boxer will be at least 15-20 pounds heavier. With proper weight, built & ripped.

Sugar Ray Robinson didn't do this for the day of his fights. But, Ray was built with proper weight regardless.


4. Kid Gavilan (Aka -- Gerardo Gonzalez, Afro-Cubano Hawk, Bolo Punch King). --- Gavilan was another very great boxer. He was never stopped in his entire professional career. Kid wasn't the hardest puncher. But, Gavilan had a very good chin. The rest of his body had a good threshold of pain. For Kids offense, he primarily relied upon counter punching & punch combinations. For his defense, he primarily relied upon his arm & hand blocking. He also utilized some footwork & torso / waist movement.

He utilized the master boxer style.

Gavilan started his pro career as a featherweight. He ended his career in what would today be considered the super middleweight division.


5. Harry Greb. -- Harry was another great boxer. He was also a very tough boxer. Greb would constantly throw punches from the very beginning of the fight until the very end.

But, Harry was erratic. In addition, he was totally blind in one of his eyes.

Harry utilized the swarmer style.

He started his pro career in the welterweight division. He ended his career in what is now today the light-heavyweight division.


6. Henry Armstrong. --- Henry was another great boxer. Armstrong was another non-stop puncher. However though, Henry was not a power puncher.

In addition, when Henry fought Sugar Ray Robinson, Armstrong was TOTALLY dominated by Robinson.

Furthermore, Armstrong received a VERY savage beating at the hands of Fritzie Zivic.

So, Armstrong should rank lower than Sugar Ray Robinson, Tony Canzoneri & Benny Leonard.

Armstrong employed the swarmer style.

Henry started his pro career as a featherweight. He ended his career in what is today the junior welterweight division.


7. Willie Pep. --- Pep was another great boxer. Willie employed the master-boxer style. He had a very long professional boxing career. In around 242 pro fights, he lost only 11 times.

However though, in Peps 4 fights against Joe "Sandy" Saddler, Pep lost 3 times. So, Peps master-boxer style was countered by Saddlers boxer-puncher style.

Willie started his pro career as a featherweight. He ended his career in what is todays super lightweight division.


8. Eder Jofre. --- Eder was another great boxer. He employed the boxer-puncher style.

In his 78 fight pro career, he lost only twice. His 2 losses were by decision.

Eder started his pro career as a bantamweight. He ended his career as a featherweight.


Since Jofre ended his career at the featherweight division, he should not rank as high as Tony Canzoneri, Benny Leonard or Sugar Ray Robinson.

These boxers shouldn't rank within the top 8.

This is due to these boxers fighting in eras where boxers fought less. Where the level & degree of competition was way less. Here are the boxers who should rank somewhere between #9 & #13. Rankings, give or take, for #9 to #13. ---


Carlos Ortiz, Jose Torres, Marvin Hagler, Bernard Hopkins & Floyd Mayweather Jr..

Some pretty erratic listing there.

King Carlos wrote:Some pretty erratic listing there.

Never knew that Jose Torres was considered that great.

1-hagler
2-tyson
3-curry
4-whitaker
5-chavez
6-duran
7-nelson
8-holyfield
9-pacqiou
10-hopkins
don`t think you can argue that the 80`s and early nineties were the golden age ;;-)

The greatest professional boxers you heard of maybe.

The End wrote:The greatest professional boxers you heard of maybe.

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Well, which boxers do you think were the greatest in the pound for pound category?

King Carlos wrote:Some pretty erratic listing there.

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Well, the listing for #1 thru #8, those boxers had very long established professional careers. With many wins against the very top opponents of their respective eras. Especially at the championship level.



Which boxers would you say were the best for the pound for pound category?

yancey wrote:

King Carlos wrote:Some pretty erratic listing there.

Never knew that Jose Torres was considered that great.

________________________________________________________



Clearly, Jose shouldn't rank in the top 8.


Jose was a champion at a heavier weight than Carlos Ortiz, Marvin Hagler, Bernard Hopkins & Floyd Mayweather Jr..

Jose had good skills, good chin, good threshold of pain. He was never knocked out & never tko'd.


Since Carlos, Marvin & Bernard had longer, more established pro careers than Jose, they should probably rank higher.



yancey, who would you say were the greatest in the pound for pound category?

This guy just want some attention. He should do aaaaaaaa llllllooooooottttt of research!

Most lists are different and this one has a different angle but it's really not that far off.

Archie Moore, Ezzard Charles, Sandy Saddler, Charley Burley, Roberto Duran would probably get on the list before Marvin, Floyd, etc... That's my take...

I can't believe no one has mentioned Monzon. Probably because we like to give props to more "honorable" human beings.

A craftsman should be assessed for his ability. Would "Starry Starry Night" be less of an accomplishment if Van Gogh was blatantly criminal? Hmmm well maybe you'd see bars in front of the stars....that might have lessened the effect I suppose.

Monzon was great, the #2 MW ever IMO, but hes not one of the eight greatest boxers ever, not by any stretch.

....Well when I see Hagler's name in such company, I tend to react rather than assess.

Hagler does not belong here. Top 8 is very limited territory.

Tommo...simply needs to get a handle on the situation.

Agreed that Hagler doesnt belong either.

Monzon was better than him but neither were THIS great.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Monzon was great, the #2 MW ever IMO, but hes not one of the eight greatest boxers ever, not by any stretch.

Who is your #1, and does he make your cut?

Harry Greb and yes he does.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Harry Greb and yes he does.

Thanks!

Muhammad Ali, nor Roberto Duran nor Jimmy Wilde nor Willie Pep in the top 8 is like a spit in the face.

Pep is as unthinkable not being in the top 8 as Robinson would be.

raylawpc wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Monzon was great, the #2 MW ever IMO, but hes not one of the eight greatest boxers ever, not by any stretch.

Who is your #1, and does he make your cut?

Ray, there is only one #1...Harry Greb, the most amazing Middleweight and P4P fighter ever...
Just think in 300 bouts he was stopped only in prelim days by a heavier more experienced Joe Chip
,and when he broke a bone against Kid Graves when a youngster. In the following 280 or so fights
Harry Greb was never stopped...weighing about 158-160 ,Harry Greb took on anyone and everyone and whipped such truly great fighters as Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky, Mike Gibbons, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker,
Big Bill Brennan, etc. He spotted many of these great fighters 15-35 pounds time and again, and get this, in the last 5 years of his great career, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye,and very little sight in his remaining eye ! Ray Robinson, [best fighter I saw ringside] never would go after an Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc. Ray knew his limitations....Harry Greb in his long career took on EVERYONE regardless of size...Truly # 1...

beaujack wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Monzon was great, the #2 MW ever IMO, but hes not one of the eight greatest boxers ever, not by any stretch.

Who is your #1, and does he make your cut?

Ray, there is only one #1...Harry Greb, the most amazing Middleweight and P4P fighter ever...
Just think in 300 bouts he was stopped only in prelim days by a heavier more experienced Joe Chip
,and when he broke a bone against Kid Graves when a youngster. In the following 280 or so fights
Harry Greb was never stopped...weighing about 158-160 ,Harry Greb took on anyone and everyone and whipped such truly great fighters as Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky, Mike Gibbons, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker,
Big Bill Brennan, etc. He spotted many of these great fighters 15-35 pounds time and again, and get this, in the last 5 years of his great career, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye,and very little sight in his remaining eye ! Ray Robinson, [best fighter I saw ringside] never would go after an Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc. Ray knew his limitations....Harry Greb in his long career took on EVERYONE regardless of size...Truly # 1...

Greb was special, but how did I know that's who Irene had in mind? That's why I asked.

In fairness to the Sugarman, Ray tried to get a fight with Archie, but it was Moore who threw a monkey wrench into the deal . . .

raylawpc wrote:

beaujack wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Who is your #1, and does he make your cut?

Ray, there is only one #1...Harry Greb, the most amazing Middleweight and P4P fighter ever...
Just think in 300 bouts he was stopped only in prelim days by a heavier more experienced Joe Chip
,and when he broke a bone against Kid Graves when a youngster. In the following 280 or so fights
Harry Greb was never stopped...weighing about 158-160 ,Harry Greb took on anyone and everyone and whipped such truly great fighters as Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky, Mike Gibbons, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker,
Big Bill Brennan, etc. He spotted many of these great fighters 15-35 pounds time and again, and get this, in the last 5 years of his great career, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye,and very little sight in his remaining eye ! Ray Robinson, [best fighter I saw ringside] never would go after an Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc. Ray knew his limitations....Harry Greb in his long career took on EVERYONE regardless of size...Truly # 1...

Greb was special, but how did I know that's who Irene had in mind? That's why I asked.

In fairness to the Sugarman, Ray tried to get a fight with Archie, but it was Moore who threw a monkey wrench into the deal . . .

I remember there were rumors those days about a possible bout between Ray and Archie, but if Ray Robinson truly WANTED that bout, he would have had it. Robinson those days usually got what he went after, after he became a champion. Furthermore he never tackled Charley Burley,and other men of "murderers row". The one bigger guy he faced, Joey Maxim was a LH,safe for Robby as Maxim
could NOT PUNCH. Harry Greb took on everyone in his prime, bouncing from town to town,
against the greatest men of his era,and beating everyone he fought Light Heavies, and even Heavyweights.
P.S. My dad saw Harry Greb murder Gene Tunney in MSG in 1922..My dad became hooked as a Greb admirer thereafter...

beaujack wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

beaujack wrote: Ray, there is only one #1...Harry Greb, the most amazing Middleweight and P4P fighter ever...
Just think in 300 bouts he was stopped only in prelim days by a heavier more experienced Joe Chip
,and when he broke a bone against Kid Graves when a youngster. In the following 280 or so fights
Harry Greb was never stopped...weighing about 158-160 ,Harry Greb took on anyone and everyone and whipped such truly great fighters as Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky, Mike Gibbons, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker,
Big Bill Brennan, etc. He spotted many of these great fighters 15-35 pounds time and again, and get this, in the last 5 years of his great career, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye,and very little sight in his remaining eye ! Ray Robinson, [best fighter I saw ringside] never would go after an Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc. Ray knew his limitations....Harry Greb in his long career took on EVERYONE regardless of size...Truly # 1...

Greb was special, but how did I know that's who Irene had in mind? That's why I asked.

In fairness to the Sugarman, Ray tried to get a fight with Archie, but it was Moore who threw a monkey wrench into the deal . . .

I remember there were rumors those days about a possible bout between Ray and Archie, but if Ray Robinson truly WANTED that bout, he would have had it. Robinson those days usually got what he went after, after he became a champion. Furthermore he never tackled Charley Burley,and other men of "murderers row". The one bigger guy he faced, Joey Maxim was a LH,safe for Robby as Maxim
could NOT PUNCH. Harry Greb took on everyone in his prime, bouncing from town to town,
against the greatest men of his era,and beating everyone he fought Light Heavies, and even Heavyweights.
P.S. My dad saw Harry Greb murder Gene Tunney in MSG in 1922..My dad became hooked as a Greb admirer thereafter...

The Robinson-Moore fight that Robinson proposed was set in early 1959, after both Robinson and Moore had big wins respectively over Basilio and Durelle and were riding a huge wave of popularity. A promoter (I have forgotten who) approached Robinson and offered a large purse for the fight, something like $500,000. Ray wanted the fight and approached Archie. Archie agreed to fight, but wanted the purse paid not just in cash, but also in stock of the theater company that would broadcast the closed circuit telecast of the fight. Ray, who lived purse to purse and was always in debt, wanted cash, no stock. So the fight never came about. Robinson was reportedly quite pissed about it. I think he knew his skills were diminishing, and he wanted one last big purse.

(According to one report, after it was clear they couldn't do a deal with Archie, Ray's manager suggested the Sugarman approach the promoter and offer to fight Floyd Patterson instead. Ray reportedly laughed and said, "If you want a fight with Floyd Patterson, YOU fight him!")

beaujack wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Monzon was great, the #2 MW ever IMO, but hes not one of the eight greatest boxers ever, not by any stretch.

Who is your #1, and does he make your cut?

Ray, there is only one #1...Harry Greb, the most amazing Middleweight and P4P fighter ever...
Just think in 300 bouts he was stopped only in prelim days by a heavier more experienced Joe Chip
,and when he broke a bone against Kid Graves when a youngster. In the following 280 or so fights
Harry Greb was never stopped...weighing about 158-160 ,Harry Greb took on anyone and everyone and whipped such truly great fighters as Gene Tunney, Tommy Gibbons, Jack Dillon, Tommy Loughran, Battling Levinsky, Mike Gibbons, Gunboat Smith, Maxie Rosenbloom, Mickey Walker,
Big Bill Brennan, etc. He spotted many of these great fighters 15-35 pounds time and again, and get this, in the last 5 years of his great career, Harry Greb was BLIND in one eye,and very little sight in his remaining eye ! Ray Robinson, [best fighter I saw ringside] never would go after an Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Harold Johnson etc. Ray knew his limitations....Harry Greb in his long career took on EVERYONE regardless of size...Truly # 1...

Beau,
It really is hard to fathom just how great Harry was. I know it probably seems like i downgrade him in the other thread where i compare him unfavourably to Fitz, but that is an unfair comparison. Greb's record is simply astonishing. I think there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind, that he beats Sugar Ray Robinson at middleweight which i think is an astonishing feat. Not just because he is teh bigger fighter, but also because he is perhaps the only person i can think who would be favoured to pull off such a feat, when Ray will be the bigger and harder hitter and who will not really have the bone jarring power at a level anything above which ray hasnt triumphed over many times before. Certainly i cant think of anyone else who might fit that bill.

The other astonishing thing about Greb is his longevity. Of its own it is as impressive as anyones. But, consider that Harry was best described as a swarmer. And as we all know, Swarmers traditionally have a style which burns them out and results in a very short career. Imagine if Greb had been an outside boxer with height and reach advantage like the Klitchskos. He might still be alive and boxing today.

I think i agree with you regarding how great Harry was (of course everything Harry Greb did, Bob Fitzsimmons did, and imo did it that little bit better) but I think that Harry is probably deserved at number 2, although some time soon i would like to have a good comparison of the careers of Monzon and Greb. Lots of simiarities there, and i am not so sure that Harry will come out ahead in that one, but he easily might.

Anyway back to the comparisons with another great middleweight such as Monzon, who i rate as a great, even though he didnt beat the opposition Langford, Greb, fitz and many others did, because he didnt challenge himself against bigger fighters, but who is still great. Greb has definitely lost to worse middleweights than Monzon, so there is no doubt that Carlos would be right in it. I think they would have a great series. In ability at least Monzon reminds me a bit of a better version of the Gibbons brothers which mean Harry despite his great record would have a real fight on his hands.

Actually while i think of it, can i ask your opinion of how the gibbons brothers series went and whether either has a chance with Harry, with both at their very best.

And of course dont forget Les Darcy who was about the same age and time as Harry, was considered the better fighter while he was alive, and a definite wildcard and unknown that could very easily have a place in these discussions.