Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 22:58
accomplishments in boxing?
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Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
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Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 18 Feb 2012, 23:37
Ali.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 00:48
Find the comparable Names on the other guys list and place them next to these names for dramatic comparison. I'll include Spinks so's you can feel free to add a few bums names like Galento and Lastarza. We'll go with actual judges decisions and call a "win" a "win" in this fishbowl comparison. Feel free to drop names of fading fighters as well, as I have done with Moore and Williams. See if you can construct an apples and apples case for either of the other mentioned fighters.
If you need me, I'll be over here keeping an open mind just in case there may be a case for "reasonable doubt".
Moore
Liston
Liston
Williams
Patterson
Patterson
Ellis
Foster
Bugner
Quarry
Quarry
Terrell
Foley
Chuvalo
Chuvalo
Frazier
Frazier
Foreman
Young
Norton
Norton
Shavers
Spinks
If you need me, I'll be over here keeping an open mind just in case there may be a case for "reasonable doubt".
Moore
Liston
Liston
Williams
Patterson
Patterson
Ellis
Foster
Bugner
Quarry
Quarry
Terrell
Foley
Chuvalo
Chuvalo
Frazier
Frazier
Foreman
Young
Norton
Norton
Shavers
Spinks
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 01:25
Quite a bit closer than i thought for Marciano. I dare say, Joe Louis might do even better!BoxBuzz wrote: If you need me, I'll be over here keeping an open mind just in case there may be a case for "reasonable doubt".
Moore - Moore
Liston - Walcott
Liston - Walcott
Williams - Kid Mathews
Patterson - Layne
Patterson -
Ellis - Savold
Foster - cockell
Bugner - Wilson
Quarry - Beshore
Quarry
Terrell - Schkor
Foley - Buonvino
Chuvalo - Lowry
Chuvalo - Lowry
Frazier - Charles
Frazier - Charles
Foreman - Louis
Young - Muscato
Norton -La Starza
Norton- LaStarza
Shavers -Vingo
Spinks - Henry
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 01:37
Louis by a hair. 25 straight edges Ali's greater top wins for me. Once again Marciano doesn't belong in the conversation.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 09:07
Here's a list I made several years ago with ali and Louis's opponents that they beat. I have there record next to each fighter at the time they fought them:
1. Foreman 40 (37 KO)-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50 (31 KO) -6-0
2. Frazier 30 (25 KO) -1-0 & 32 (27 KO) -2-0 vs. Schmeling 52 (37 KO) -7-4
3. Liston 35 (25 KO) -1-0 & 35 (25 KO)-2-0 vs. Braddock 50 (26 KO) -25-7
4. Norton 30 (23 KO) -1-0 & 37 (30 KO) -3-0 vs. Walcott 44 (27 KO) -11-2 & 44 (27 KO) -12-2
5. Patterson 43 (32 KO) -4-0 & 55 (40 KO) -7-1 vs. Conn 59 (13 KO) -10-1 & 62 (13 KO) -11-1
6. Quarry 37 (23 KO) -4-4 & 43 (25 KO) -5-4 vs. Nova 26 (17 KO) -2-4
7. Bonavena 46 (36 KO) -6-1 vs. Galento 76 (53 KO) -23-5
8. Ellis 30 (14 KO) -6-0 vs. Sharkey 38 (13 KO) -13-3
9. Folley 74 (40 KO) -7-4 vs. Farr 66 (18 KO) -20-13 Pick-Em
10. Terrell 38 (18 KO) -4-0 vs. Carnera 82 (66 KO) -7-0
11. Chuvalo 34 (27 KO) -11-2 & 66 (57 KO)-17-2 vs. Godoy 53 (30) -8-7 & 53 (30 KO) -9-7
12. Lyle 30 (21 KO) -2-1 vs. Simon 34 (23 KO) -7-0 & 36 (25 KO) -9-1
13. Shavers 55 (53 KO) -5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50 (47 KO) -5-0 & 50 (47 KO) -6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1
Here's one on Ali and Rocky:
1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Walcott 51-16-2 & 51-17-2
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Charles 80-10-1 & 80-11-1
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Moore 148-19-9
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. LaStarza 37-0-0 & 53-3-0
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Cockell 66-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Matthews 81-3-5
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Louis 69-2-0
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Layne 34-1-2
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Savold 93-39-3
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Muscato 56-20-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Shkor 29-18-2
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Beshore 30-12-1
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Reynolds 51-9-2
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3 vs.
18. Moore 184-22-11 vs.
19. Young 17-4-2 vs.
20. Williams 65-5-1 vs.
21. Jones 21-3-1 vs.
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1 vs.
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1 vs.
1. Foreman 40 (37 KO)-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50 (31 KO) -6-0
2. Frazier 30 (25 KO) -1-0 & 32 (27 KO) -2-0 vs. Schmeling 52 (37 KO) -7-4
3. Liston 35 (25 KO) -1-0 & 35 (25 KO)-2-0 vs. Braddock 50 (26 KO) -25-7
4. Norton 30 (23 KO) -1-0 & 37 (30 KO) -3-0 vs. Walcott 44 (27 KO) -11-2 & 44 (27 KO) -12-2
5. Patterson 43 (32 KO) -4-0 & 55 (40 KO) -7-1 vs. Conn 59 (13 KO) -10-1 & 62 (13 KO) -11-1
6. Quarry 37 (23 KO) -4-4 & 43 (25 KO) -5-4 vs. Nova 26 (17 KO) -2-4
7. Bonavena 46 (36 KO) -6-1 vs. Galento 76 (53 KO) -23-5
8. Ellis 30 (14 KO) -6-0 vs. Sharkey 38 (13 KO) -13-3
9. Folley 74 (40 KO) -7-4 vs. Farr 66 (18 KO) -20-13 Pick-Em
10. Terrell 38 (18 KO) -4-0 vs. Carnera 82 (66 KO) -7-0
11. Chuvalo 34 (27 KO) -11-2 & 66 (57 KO)-17-2 vs. Godoy 53 (30) -8-7 & 53 (30 KO) -9-7
12. Lyle 30 (21 KO) -2-1 vs. Simon 34 (23 KO) -7-0 & 36 (25 KO) -9-1
13. Shavers 55 (53 KO) -5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50 (47 KO) -5-0 & 50 (47 KO) -6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1
Here's one on Ali and Rocky:
1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Walcott 51-16-2 & 51-17-2
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Charles 80-10-1 & 80-11-1
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Moore 148-19-9
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. LaStarza 37-0-0 & 53-3-0
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Cockell 66-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Matthews 81-3-5
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Louis 69-2-0
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Layne 34-1-2
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Savold 93-39-3
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Muscato 56-20-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Shkor 29-18-2
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Beshore 30-12-1
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Reynolds 51-9-2
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3 vs.
18. Moore 184-22-11 vs.
19. Young 17-4-2 vs.
20. Williams 65-5-1 vs.
21. Jones 21-3-1 vs.
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1 vs.
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1 vs.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 11:54
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Ali.
Agree, though a very strong case can be made for the Brown Bomber.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 12:38
Definitely. Its a debate, alright.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 15:10
Frazier.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 16:09
Well I imagined folks would get right to short changing the process.
Notice how people are sneakily going about ignoring return bouts as if they did not take place.
It's not just the names in the frames, it's how many times he faced them and won.
I suggest you begin again, utilizing the proper model of comparison.
I'll continue to keep an open mind.
I do notice that the Rocky comparison attempted to be fair. However it don't quite look like apples and apples to my eyes.
Notice how people are sneakily going about ignoring return bouts as if they did not take place.
It's not just the names in the frames, it's how many times he faced them and won.
I suggest you begin again, utilizing the proper model of comparison.
I'll continue to keep an open mind.
I do notice that the Rocky comparison attempted to be fair. However it don't quite look like apples and apples to my eyes.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 16:14
Good way to rationalize. I won't be critical. But I don't see how greater numbers with weaker opposition cinches it in that direction. So I rationalize differently. I find myself on the opposite side of this fence.SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Louis by a hair. 25 straight edges Ali's greater top wins for me. Once again Marciano doesn't belong in the conversation.
And agree that the Rock's place in this discussion, is a distraction at best.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 16:21
His opposition wasn't all weak and it's something that nobody else has ever done.The accomplishment speaks for itself.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 16:43
I thought you said Marciano doesn't belong in the conversation . . . Glad you changed your mind!SaadOffTheDeck wrote:His opposition wasn't all weak and it's something that nobody else has ever done.The accomplishment speaks for itself.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 16:55
Your jokes get worse by the hour.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 17:06
@BoxBuzz,BoxBuzz wrote:Good way to rationalize. I won't be critical. But I don't see how greater numbers with weaker opposition cinches it in that direction. So I rationalize differently. I find myself on the opposite side of this fence.SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Louis by a hair. 25 straight edges Ali's greater top wins for me. Once again Marciano doesn't belong in the conversation.
And agree that the Rock's place in this discussion, is a distraction at best.
Completely agree that Rock has no place in this discussion.
I only put him in and started this thread because of an observation made on another thread.
By the responses here it is clear that Louis and Ali out rank Rocky in boxing accomplishments.
My point has been made.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 18:11
Ali
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 19:33
If there is a point being made...(and I'm not certain this is even in play) That Rocky retired undefeated and that's "special" I would agree it deserves an asterisk of it's own. Right next to Roger Maris's (I feel that's sort of an "apples and apples" comparison actually". At one time it was VERY special. But now that the likes of Ottke and Calzaghe have joined that club...it appears to have lost some luster in my mind. Though he was the first...and the only HW thus far.
But he could not have achieved that with either Ali's or Louis's schedule. Agreed?
But he could not have achieved that with either Ali's or Louis's schedule. Agreed?
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 20:09
My only "point" was that the notion that Marciano outranked the other two in accomplishment is seriously off base. But I'm going to get off this immediately, we all can be wrong at different times.BoxBuzz wrote:If there is a point being made...(and I'm not certain this is even in play) That Rocky retired undefeated and that's "special" I would agree it deserves an asterisk of it's own. Right next to Roger Maris's (I feel that's sort of an "apples and apples" comparison actually". At one time it was VERY special. But now that the likes of Ottke and Calzaghe have joined that club...it appears to have lost some luster in my mind. Though he was the first...and the only HW thus far.
But he could not have achieved that with either Ali's or Louis's schedule. Agreed?
As far as Rocky going undefeated against the Louis or Ali schedule?
Not a chance, imo.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 21:07
Ottke and Calzaghe (and Richardo Lopez for that matter) weren't heavyweights. I don't know whether or not Rocky could have done it with their schedules, because he wasn't asked to do it. To say he could have or couldn't have would be rank speculation.BoxBuzz wrote:If there is a point being made...(and I'm not certain this is even in play) That Rocky retired undefeated and that's "special" I would agree it deserves an asterisk of it's own. Right next to Roger Maris's (I feel that's sort of an "apples and apples" comparison actually". At one time it was VERY special. But now that the likes of Ottke and Calzaghe have joined that club...it appears to have lost some luster in my mind. Though he was the first...and the only HW thus far.
But he could not have achieved that with either Ali's or Louis's schedule. Agreed?
I don't know; maybe only someone who actually fought in competition can understand how special it is to go your whole career undefeated. (Heck, I was never undefeated; I lost my first fight.) I didn't pick Rocky's achievement as the greatest achievement to denigrate Louis or Ali. Frankly, I think one or the other of them was probably the greatest heavyweight of all-time. But I just happen to believe the outstanding achievement for any heavyweight is to fight the best his era had to offer, win the world's championship, and retire as undefeated and undisputed world champion.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 19 Feb 2012, 22:27
Well I understand the nuance. Sort of a special or lifetime achievement tip of the hat.
*Louis holding the championship for longer than anyone.
*Marciano having retired with the perfect record
*Patterson regaining the championship
*Ali regaining it twice.....forget about it after that, it's just too hard to follow and loses any meaning regarding "regaining".
*Louis and Ali have a hotly contested race for "most difficult lifetime schedule". I lean to Ali as the tie breaker here.
For humor sake I'll and a specialty catagory throw in....Frazier...beating the best fighter of all time close to his peak....Would we have to tip the hat to Schmeling as well for his triumph over the other best fighter of all time at or near the peak of his game?
Little something for everyone here.....
*Louis holding the championship for longer than anyone.
*Marciano having retired with the perfect record
*Patterson regaining the championship
*Ali regaining it twice.....forget about it after that, it's just too hard to follow and loses any meaning regarding "regaining".
*Louis and Ali have a hotly contested race for "most difficult lifetime schedule". I lean to Ali as the tie breaker here.
For humor sake I'll and a specialty catagory throw in....Frazier...beating the best fighter of all time close to his peak....Would we have to tip the hat to Schmeling as well for his triumph over the other best fighter of all time at or near the peak of his game?
Little something for everyone here.....
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 20 Feb 2012, 03:33
BoxBuzz wrote:Henry has already compared Louis which is close. I think Jack Johnson would make a very interesting comparison. Actually, can Louis and Ali match the sheer quantity of wins that Johnson has across the entirety of his carrer, because i am not so sure they necessarilly can, in terms of how close some of the guys may have been to peak, but that is one impressive list of victims on Johnson's ledger, and i am sure i left a few off.
Moore - Fitzsimmons
Liston - McVey
Liston - McVey
Williams - Martin
Patterson - O Brien
Patterson - O'Brien
Ellis -Gardner
Foster - Ketchell
Bugner - Burns
Quarry - Flynn
Quarry - Flynn
Terrell - Kaufman
Foley - Moran
Chuvalo - Griffin
Chuvalo - Griffin
Frazier - Jeanette
Frazier - Jeanette
Foreman - Jeffries
Young - Childs
Norton - Ferguson
Norton - Ferguson
Shavers - Langford
Spinks - Simmons
Plus, Johnson has:
Roper, Smith, Lester, Thompson, Ross, Felix, Monroe, Butler, McCormick, Lawler, Klondike, Jeffords, Jack Jeffries, Russell, Kennedy, Burke, Lang
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 20 Feb 2012, 22:54
Damn Boilermaker.....I have to admit that list is almost spooky! Since I didn't live in that era, (well I was very young then) and all we have for the most part is the written history it would be hard to formulate just how close in caliber these matchups really are to the Ali list.
But still this list match of yours is good work!
But still this list match of yours is good work!
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 21 Feb 2012, 07:17
I think Johnson is in with a shout.
Marciano's list looks much closer than I expected.
Marciano's list looks much closer than I expected.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 21 Feb 2012, 09:39
Muhammad Ali because he was 'The Greatest'.
2nd: Joe Louis because he had the longest reign and made the most title defences.
3rd. Rocky Marciano because he retired unbeaten and had the greatest KO%.
2nd: Joe Louis because he had the longest reign and made the most title defences.
3rd. Rocky Marciano because he retired unbeaten and had the greatest KO%.
Re: Louis, Marciano, Ali, which man had the greatest
Posted: 21 Feb 2012, 13:24
I'm looking forward to a day when a new fighter proclaims himself "The Bestest" and we can all rest assured we will see his name at the top of this list.
Ok...I"m kidding, but Stevo's reasoning scandalized my intellect for a moment. But I'm ok now.
Ok...I"m kidding, but Stevo's reasoning scandalized my intellect for a moment. But I'm ok now.