BoxRec

Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

yancey wrote:Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

I guess you must be talking about IF Joe had fought Floyd in November instead of Eddie Machen. That match-up would have been too much, too soon for Joe. Joe didn't look all that great against Machen, although he hung in there and became only the second man - at the point - to stop Eddie. I think Floyd was better than Oscar and Eddie in November 1966. This would have been a tough fight for Joe. As much I love Joe Frazier, I would have favored Floyd to win by decision in late 1966. Joe just didn't have enough experience at that point in his career.

A year later? Different outcome.

raylawpc wrote:

yancey wrote:Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

I guess you must be talking about IF Joe had fought Floyd in November instead of Eddie Machen. That match-up would have been too much, too soon for Joe. Joe didn't look all that great against Machen, although he hung in there and became only the second man - at the point - to stop Eddie. I think Floyd was better than Oscar and Eddie in November 1966. This would have been a tough fight for Joe. As much I love Joe Frazier, I would have favored Floyd to win by decision in late 1966. Joe just didn't have enough experience at that point in his career.

I pretty much agree with your viewpoint. I see a late 1966 matchup as fairly close to a 50/50 proposition, probably Floyd a slight favorite.

Joe's team would never have put him in against Patterson in '66, so it is just a hypothetical.

I was just wondering how you fellows would see it.

p.s. I was thinking Frazier fought Bonavena fairly late in '66, maybe I need to check my dates.

raylawpc wrote:

yancey wrote:Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

I guess you must be talking about IF Joe had fought Floyd in November instead of Eddie Machen. That match-up would have been too much, too soon for Joe. Joe didn't look all that great against Machen, although he hung in there and became only the second man - at the point - to stop Eddie. I think Floyd was better than Oscar and Eddie in November 1966. This would have been a tough fight for Joe. As much I love Joe Frazier, I would have favored Floyd to win by decision in late 1966. Joe just didn't have enough experience at that point in his career.

A year later? Different outcome.

Yes, by '67 Frazier was really coming on and would be pulling ahead of Patterson.

By '68 or '69 he would have been way too much for Floyd.

Patterson was already past his prime a little by 1966, but Frazier's giving up more ground in being so inexperienced.

Im thinking this is Patterson's fight. Could he possibly stop a Frazier this green? I'll say a points verdict.

Agree that in a year or so, things change.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Patterson was already past his prime a little by 1966, but Frazier's giving up more ground in being so inexperienced.

Im thinking this is Patterson's fight. Could he possibly stop a Frazier this green? I'll say a points verdict.

Agree that in a year or so, things change.

Don't see Floyd stopping Frazier, unless it was a fluke cut.

I think Floyd would quite possibly win a decision, but it would have been close. It might well have been a deal where Patterson built up a early points lead, but I think Frazier would have been coming on strong in the end.

yancey wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

yancey wrote:Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

I guess you must be talking about IF Joe had fought Floyd in November instead of Eddie Machen. That match-up would have been too much, too soon for Joe. Joe didn't look all that great against Machen, although he hung in there and became only the second man - at the point - to stop Eddie. I think Floyd was better than Oscar and Eddie in November 1966. This would have been a tough fight for Joe. As much I love Joe Frazier, I would have favored Floyd to win by decision in late 1966. Joe just didn't have enough experience at that point in his career.

I pretty much agree with your viewpoint. I see a late 1966 matchup as fairly close to a 50/50 proposition, probably Floyd a slight favorite.

Joe's team would never have put him in against Patterson in '66, so it is just a hypothetical.

I was just wondering how you fellows would see it.

p.s. I was thinking Frazier fought Bonavena fairly late in '66, maybe I need to check my dates.

They fought in September and he fought Machen in November.

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Patterson was already past his prime a little by 1966, but Frazier's giving up more ground in being so inexperienced.

Im thinking this is Patterson's fight. Could he possibly stop a Frazier this green? I'll say a points verdict.

Agree that in a year or so, things change.

Don't see Floyd stopping Frazier, unless it was a fluke cut.

I think Floyd would quite possibly win a decision, but it would have been close. It might well have been a deal where Patterson built up a early points lead, but I think Frazier would have been coming on strong in the end.

The winner on stoppage would be Frazier, and that's probably the only way he wins. He has to catch Floyd at some point. Did anybody ever cut Joe around the eyes? The only cut I remember was that rather nasty lip cut he sustained at the hands of Foreman in 1973.

It's true he came on against Bonavena and Machen, but coming on against the 1966 version of Floyd Patterson would have been an entirely different proposition.

I think so, too.

Frazier may not finish this fight so strongly, and Im not sure he finishes it at all.

If Patterson puts him in trouble at some stage, I consider it no sure thing Frazier has the know-how to survive --- but I think with Patterson beginning to slide and struggling with his back, I think Patterson wide on points.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I think so, too.

Frazier may not finish this fight so strongly, and Im not sure he finishes it at all.

If Patterson puts him in trouble at some stage, I consider it no sure thing Frazier has the know-how to survive --- but I think with Patterson beginning to slide and struggling with his back, I think Patterson wide on points.

Patterson isn't stopping '66 Frazier, no way in hell.

And if you are the Patterson camp, you really prefer about a 6 round fight if you could get away with such a stunt.

I think there is a fair chance here that the inexperienced but more physically dominant Frazier slowly breaks down Floyd and gets him late.

Again, close to a 50/50 proposition, imo.

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I think so, too.

Frazier may not finish this fight so strongly, and Im not sure he finishes it at all.

If Patterson puts him in trouble at some stage, I consider it no sure thing Frazier has the know-how to survive --- but I think with Patterson beginning to slide and struggling with his back, I think Patterson wide on points.

Patterson isn't stopping '66 Frazier, no way in hell.

And if you are the Patterson camp, you really prefer about a 6 round fight if you could get away with such a stunt.

I think there is a fair chance here that the inexperienced but more physically dominant Frazier slowly breaks down Floyd and gets him late.

Again, close to a 50/50 proposition, imo.

It would have been an interesting fight. If I were a betting man, I'd favor Patterson at this stage by a decision. I just don't think Frazier had the experience to handle Floyd. But you are right, I think: it is highly unlikely Floyd could stop Joe.

Dunno about that, guys.

Think what the chances of Foreman stopping Ali in the latter's second year as a pro, compared with his chances of doing the same with the 66-67 Ali.

What is highly unlikely prime-for-prime isnt anywhere near so absurd under the right conditions...and a boxer in his second year as a pro, with merely a handful of bouts to his name, against a former world champion still good enough to beat and lose very narrowly to guys like prime Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena...it aint like Patterson couldnt punch or finish, he still had a big advantage in handspeed, and like most 21/22-year-old greenhorns, Frazier wouldnt yet be as toughened or self-assured as he would be in later years.

The chance for it is there, IMO.

raylawpc wrote:

yancey wrote:Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

I guess you must be talking about IF Joe had fought Floyd in November instead of Eddie Machen. That match-up would have been too much, too soon for Joe. Joe didn't look all that great against Machen, although he hung in there and became only the second man - at the point - to stop Eddie. I think Floyd was better than Oscar and Eddie in November 1966. This would have been a tough fight for Joe. As much I love Joe Frazier, I would have favored Floyd to win by decision in late 1966. Joe just didn't have enough experience at that point in his career.

A year later? Different outcome.

How do you figure Frazier "didnt look all that great" against Machen? Frazier literally pounded Machen from ring post to ring post until the ninth round when Machen momentarily caught surging Frazier coming in and buckled his knees. Frazier came back to beat the bejesus out of Machen and stopped him in the next round. The context of this fight was that Machen was being used as a barometer for a Frazier-Quarry match (seeing that Machen had only just defeated the previously unbeaten Quarry). In that context, and taking into account that Frazier was the first man since Johanssen nearly ten years earlier to stop Machen. Id say he looked pretty darn good. He absolutely ruined whatever Machen had left after having him helpless on the ropes several times. In truth this fight could have been stopped earlier.

klompton wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

yancey wrote:Probably my favorite Floyd Patterson fight is when he destroyed Henry Cooper in September, 1966.

At that same period of time, Joe Frazier was up and coming, but still inexperienced. Later in that year, he would be knocked down twice by Bonavena before winning a very close decision.

How do you see a 10 rounder playing out between Joe and Floyd in '66?

I guess you must be talking about IF Joe had fought Floyd in November instead of Eddie Machen. That match-up would have been too much, too soon for Joe. Joe didn't look all that great against Machen, although he hung in there and became only the second man - at the point - to stop Eddie. I think Floyd was better than Oscar and Eddie in November 1966. This would have been a tough fight for Joe. As much I love Joe Frazier, I would have favored Floyd to win by decision in late 1966. Joe just didn't have enough experience at that point in his career.

A year later? Different outcome.

How do you figure Frazier "didnt look all that great" against Machen? Frazier literally pounded Machen from ring post to ring post until the ninth round when Machen momentarily caught surging Frazier coming in and buckled his knees. Frazier came back to beat the bejesus out of Machen and stopped him in the next round. The context of this fight was that Machen was being used as a barometer for a Frazier-Quarry match (seeing that Machen had only just defeated the previously unbeaten Quarry). In that context, and taking into account that Frazier was the first man since Johanssen nearly ten years earlier to stop Machen. Id say he looked pretty darn good. He absolutely ruined whatever Machen had left after having him helpless on the ropes several times. In truth this fight could have been stopped earlier.

Because Machen came back in the middle rounds. An experienced Frazier would have had him out in the first three rounds. Joe's inexperience showed throughout the fight.

Now, do you care to express an opinion on the topic of this thread, i.e. Frazier v. Patterson in late 1966? Or did you just come in to be disagreeable?

"Came back in the middle rounds"? When? I have the complete fight in color from the old olympic collection and Machen spent the entire fight on the ropes and in the corners getting battered. He landed the rare counter, which is why they didnt stop the fight earlier, but in the eighth, ninth, and tenth rounds Machen was literally swaying like a sheet in the wind, it wasnt a matter of Frazier not stopping him earlier it was a matter of Tommy Hart letting the fight go on too long. What experienced fighter was going to get Machen out of there in three rounds prior to this? Even the Johannsen victory is eye popping at least as much for the fact that it was the durable Machen who experienced that kind of stoppage. Look at the punchers Machen fought before, during, and past his prime and tell me how many of them could or would have gotten him out of there in three or even the 10 rounds that Frazier did. The only reason Kirkman got the KO win over him was because he had nothing left after Frazier beat him to a frazzle 6 months earlier.

As for my opinion on Frazier-Patterson I think its a horrible style matchup for Patterson even in 1966. I agree that Frazier's confidence level might have been a factor but I kind of doubt it. I also disagree with using Patterson's victory over Cooper as some kind of barometer. Cooper simply wasnt that good, and frankly had a good style for Patterson and whose vulnerabilities played into Pattersons strengths. I think a '66 match between Frazier and Cooper would have been just as emphatic for Frazier if not more so than it was for Patterson.

It was certainly not my intention to make Henry Cooper a "barometer" in this topic.

I was simply using that great performance by Floyd to point out he still had a lot left in '66. Enough to possibly hold off the up and coming, but inexperienced Frazier, and get a points victory.

Of course, Frazier destroys Cooper.

I also agree that Frazier is a bad match up in styles for Patterson. The longer that fight goes, the more it favors Frazier, imo.

That is why I specified 10 rounds.

klompton wrote:"Came back in the middle rounds"? When? I have the complete fight in color from the old olympic collection and Machen spent the entire fight on the ropes and in the corners getting battered. He landed the rare counter, which is why they didnt stop the fight earlier, but in the eighth, ninth, and tenth rounds Machen was literally swaying like a sheet in the wind, it wasnt a matter of Frazier not stopping him earlier it was a matter of Tommy Hart letting the fight go on too long. What experienced fighter was going to get Machen out of there in three rounds prior to this? Even the Johannsen victory is eye popping at least as much for the fact that it was the durable Machen who experienced that kind of stoppage. Look at the punchers Machen fought before, during, and past his prime and tell me how many of them could or would have gotten him out of there in three or even the 10 rounds that Frazier did. The only reason Kirkman got the KO win over him was because he had nothing left after Frazier beat him to a frazzle 6 months earlier.

As for my opinion on Frazier-Patterson I think its a horrible style matchup for Patterson even in 1966. I agree that Frazier's confidence level might have been a factor but I kind of doubt it. I also disagree with using Patterson's victory over Cooper as some kind of barometer. Cooper simply wasnt that good, and frankly had a good style for Patterson and whose vulnerabilities played into Pattersons strengths. I think a '66 match between Frazier and Cooper would have been just as emphatic for Frazier if not more so than it was for Patterson.

The referee isn't involved when you finish the guy for a ten count. I don't know how you can't see Frazier's inexperience in that fight.

Do you see inexperience when Frazier fought Bonavena the second time? Because the two fights are similar with the main difference being Machen was far less competetive.

As stated before, who outside of Johannson ever forced a ten count over Machen prior to this bout? Machen was a very durable fighter and Frazier absolutely battered and dominated him. To dispute that shows youve never seen the fight, or even checked the scorecards for that matter. The fact that you havent seen the fight is borne out by your comment about the ref, who did indeed allow the fight to continue far too long. Its also unrealistic to think that you can get every guy out of there every single time and then hold it against him because he was utterly dominant, dropped and stopped a far more experienced, durable, cagey fighter, and gave him a bad beating in the process. The question begs to be asked "what else could he have done?" Your answer "knock him out with a clean ten count inside of 3 rounds." seems to miss the point.

klompton wrote:Do you see inexperience when Frazier fought Bonavena the second time? Because the two fights are similar with the main difference being Machen was far less competetive.

As stated before, who outside of Johannson ever forced a ten count over Machen prior to this bout? Machen was a very durable fighter and Frazier absolutely battered and dominated him. To dispute that shows youve never seen the fight, or even checked the scorecards for that matter. The fact that you havent seen the fight is borne out by your comment about the ref, who did indeed allow the fight to continue far too long. Its also unrealistic to think that you can get every guy out of there every single time and then hold it against him because he was utterly dominant, dropped and stopped a far more experienced, durable, cagey fighter, and gave him a bad beating in the process. The question begs to be asked "what else could he have done?" Your answer "knock him out with a clean ten count inside of 3 rounds." seems to miss the point.

Suit yourself.

I think that it would have been a very hard fight for the great Smokin Joe vs Floyd Patterson. Patterson was in decline a long time before 1966, but still had some competitive fight in him. He might give Joe some problems early, but at the end, Joe stamina and youth and power would have prevailed against an experienced two-time champion in decline.

Patterson was still useful in 66 but I really don't think he could have beaten Frazier. Joe never had problems with slick boxers, a bad match-up stylewise for Floyd, even against a green Frazier.

Frazier's people rejected a Patterson bout in late 1966 saying that Joe would not be ready for such a bout for another 6 months.

According to Teddy Brenner, Patterson rejected a Frazier fight in 1969.

Bobby A. wrote:Frazier's people rejected a Patterson bout in late 1966 saying that Joe would not be ready for such a bout for another 6 months.

According to Teddy Brenner, Patterson rejected a Frazier fight in 1969.

Source please. Id also like a little more background on what they meant by "not ready" that could mean mean Frazier wasnt developed enough or it could mean something as inoccuous as the date that was give for the match wouldnt provide Frazier enough training time.

I will have to search for the sourse but the reason given was that Joe was not developed enough-in late 1966. Durham also admitted in a Sports Illustrated article that they wanted no part of Zora Folley; Yancey said that were not trying to be heroes with Frazier.

I'd agree with Durham that while Foley & Patterson were each past their best, Frazier was just too green to win those fights.

He may've gotten lucky with a big left hook, but that'd be the extent of his chances, IMO. He just wasn't remotely the guy he would be around 18 months later.