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Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 08:55
by Prediction...Pain
Who are they? This is my future weight class and I have already been studying tapes of some but I'm still a bit of a noob in knowing great older fighters. I'm sure I have come to the right place...
Michael Nunn
Freddie Steele
Carlos Monzon
Dick Tiger
Marvin Hagler
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 11:40
by Crease
DetroitHxC wrote:This was Ring Magazine's list a few years back, Bernard Hopkins would obviously be on the list now:
20. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
19. Joey Giardello
18. Tommy Ryan
17. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Rodrigo Valdes
15. Gene Fullmer
14. Dick Tiger
13. Emile Griffith
12. Tony Zale
11. Marcel Cerdan
10. Billy Conn
9. Mickey Walker
8. Stanley Ketchel
7. Tiger Flowers
6. Charley Burley
5. Jake LaMotta
4. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Harry Greb
It's a good list (Though I'd have Sugar Ray as the number one)
And I would reccommend checking out some Rocky Grazianio's fights, he was a ballsy guy.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 12:30
by BoxBuzz
Sugar Ray was great, but IMHO he does not bring his #1 WW &p4p gravitas to the MW division. He is given that far too generously by those who perhaps want to put an exclamation point on their beilef that his the pound for pound #1.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 13:47
by Goodnight, Irene
Very, very steep class traditionally. One of the richest, no question.
Hopkins would be in the 8-12 range for me. Think I had him at 9 in my last top-10 compilation.
Your top-5 is always going to be any combination of Greb, Monzon, Hagler, Robinson, & either Burley or Ketchel.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 13:50
by Goodnight, Irene
DetroitHxC wrote:This was Ring Magazine's list a few years back, Bernard Hopkins would obviously be on the list now:
20. Nonpareil Jack Dempsey
19. Joey Giardello
18. Tommy Ryan
17. Bob Fitzsimmons
16. Rodrigo Valdes
15. Gene Fullmer
14. Dick Tiger
13. Emile Griffith
12. Tony Zale
11. Marcel Cerdan
10. Billy Conn
9. Mickey Walker
8. Stanley Ketchel
7. Tiger Flowers
6. Charley Burley
5. Jake LaMotta
4. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
1. Harry Greb
The placings of Fitzsimmons and LaMotta are positively scandalous.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 13:59
by Goodnight, Irene
Place the brilliant Mike McCallum (who was better as a JMW, but nonetheless great at 160) before you place Toney, IMO.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:00
by King Carlos
I think it's obvious my choice.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:01
by King Carlos
One guy who didn't make the Ring list that would be without question inside of my top 10 is Freddie Steele.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:02
by Goodnight, Irene
King Carlos wrote:I think it's obvious my choice.
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:03
by Goodnight, Irene
King Carlos wrote:One guy who didn't make the Ring list that would be without question inside of my top 10 is Freddie Steele.
I like your thinking.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:05
by King Carlos
Goodnight, Irene wrote:King Carlos wrote:I think it's obvious my choice.
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
All things considered Greb has to be #1 (he's my #1 fighter of all time, period), but not when only taking into account the fighter's tenure at Middleweight. Monzon is my choice for the greatest Middleweight champion of all time.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:09
by Goodnight, Irene
Monzon goes in at #2 for me.
Im surprisingly confident he'd have bested Hagler and Robinson, and that says a lot.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:14
by King Carlos
Kalambay would be inside of my top 20 as well. Criminally underrated and overlooked a lot of the time.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:22
by Jaywheel
BarryWashington wrote:Can't forget Herol Graham
How could I? I watch that clip of him timbering against the Hawk on a regular base. Commentary is epic when it happens.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:34
by Jaywheel
I know. Just a shame that sometimes the first thing you think of an otherwise solid fighter is the one time they got beheaded.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:57
by beaujack
Goodnight, Irene wrote:King Carlos wrote:I think it's obvious my choice.
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
Yes, imagine Monzon beating Gene Tunney, OR Gunboat Smith, Or Tommy Gibbons, Or Jack Dillon, Or Tommy Loughran, Or Battling Levinsky,OR Maxie Rosenbloom, Or Kid Norfolk, Or Big Bill Brennan, OR Willie Meehan, ALL who outweighed Greb from 10-35 pounds...Some of these big boys Greb whipped several times in a career of THREE HUNDRED BOUTS, and lest we forget the amazing Greb was fighting with only ONE EYE for the last few YEARS of his astounding career...To truly place any
MW over Greb, tell me , who can come close to duplicating what the Pittsburgh Windmill accomplished? Answer : NO ONE...
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:58
by beaujack
beaujack wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:King Carlos wrote:I think it's obvious my choice.
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
Yes, imagine Monzon beating Gene Tunney, OR Gunboat Smith, Or Tommy Gibbons, Or Jack Dillon, Or Tommy Loughran, Or Battling Levinsky,OR Maxie Rosenbloom, Or Kid Norfolk, Or Big Bill Brennan, OR Willie Meehan, ALL who outweighed Greb from 10-35 pounds...Some of these big boys Greb whipped several times in a career of THREE HUNDRED BOUTS, and lest we forget the amazing Greb was fighting with only ONE EYE for the last few YEARS of his astounding career...To truly place any
MW over Greb, tell me , who can come close to duplicating what the Pittsburgh Windmill accomplished? Answer : NO ONE...
beaujack
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 14:59
by beaujack
beaujack wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:King Carlos wrote:I think it's obvious my choice.
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
Yes, imagine Monzon beating Gene Tunney, OR Gunboat Smith, Or Tommy Gibbons, Or Jack Dillon, Or Tommy Loughran, Or Battling Levinsky,OR Maxie Rosenbloom, Or Kid Norfolk, Or Big Bill Brennan, OR Willie Meehan, ALL who outweighed Greb from 10-35 pounds...Some of these big boys Greb whipped several times in a career of THREE HUNDRED BOUTS, and lest we forget the amazing Greb was fighting with only ONE EYE for the last few YEARS of his astounding career...To truly place any
MW over Greb, tell me , who can come close to duplicating what the Pittsburgh Windmill accomplished? Answer : NO ONE...
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 16:21
by Boilermaker
beaujack wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:King Carlos wrote:I think it's obvious my choice.
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
Yes, imagine Monzon beating Gene Tunney, OR Gunboat Smith, Or Tommy Gibbons, Or Jack Dillon, Or Tommy Loughran, Or Battling Levinsky,OR Maxie Rosenbloom, Or Kid Norfolk, Or Big Bill Brennan, OR Willie Meehan, ALL who outweighed Greb from 10-35 pounds...Some of these big boys Greb whipped several times in a career of THREE HUNDRED BOUTS, and lest we forget the amazing Greb was fighting with only ONE EYE for the last few YEARS of his astounding career...To truly place any
MW over Greb, tell me , who can come close to duplicating what the Pittsburgh Windmill accomplished? Answer : NO ONE...
come on Beau, you know there is one middleweight who could duplicate those results.
:P
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 16:46
by BoxBuzz
....that which can not be seen, nor heard, is ALWAYS BIGGER and SCARIER than anything/anyone else.
No films of him or Maxie Rosenbloom.......and when you figure Greb beat the unfilmed Rosenbloom.....well....now that becomes EXPONENTIALLY DESTRUCTIVE.....so..... .there you have it!
In our day and age, Nothing is more powerfully compelling than "the unseen".
lol.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 17:02
by King Carlos
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 17:15
by beaujack
Boilermaker wrote:beaujack wrote:Goodnight, Irene wrote:
He was my #1 until three or four years ago, until I conceded that, film or not, Greb cant be denied (imagine Monzon beating Tunney? Me neither).
Yes, imagine Monzon beating Gene Tunney, OR Gunboat Smith, Or Tommy Gibbons, Or Jack Dillon, Or Tommy Loughran, Or Battling Levinsky,OR Maxie Rosenbloom, Or Kid Norfolk, Or Big Bill Brennan, OR Willie Meehan, ALL who outweighed Greb from 10-35 pounds...Some of these big boys Greb whipped several times in a career of THREE HUNDRED BOUTS, and lest we forget the amazing Greb was fighting with only ONE EYE for the last few YEARS of his astounding career...To truly place any
MW over Greb, tell me , who can come close to duplicating what the Pittsburgh Windmill accomplished? Answer : NO ONE...
come on Beau, you know there is one middleweight who could duplicate those results.
:P
B, Fitz, might be the one H2H, but I regard Fitz as an anomalay, a middle weight in a heavyweights body...But how do you ever catch up to a fleet footed Greb to ko him ? Truly in about 300 bouts, Greb was stopped just ONCE in his first year by a vastly more experienced and HEAVIER Joe Chip, brother of George Chip, the Middleweight Champion...An iron rubber ball was Harry...
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 17:50
by Ezzard
If we take Greb out of the argument then who is next in line. That's sort of more interesting because it's hard to argue witb Harry (or beaujack)...
Actually I'm interested in beaujack's #2.
Mine is Monzon.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 17:53
by Goodnight, Irene
Ezzard wrote:If we take Greb out of the argument then who is next in line. That's sort of more interesting because it's hard to argue witb Harry (or beaujack)...
Actually I'm interested in beaujack's #2.
Mine is Monzon.
Yes, my #2 is Monzon.
Robinson and Hagler are next in line but really, I envision Monzon as beating either.
Re: Greatest Middleweights Ever?
Posted: 16 Mar 2012, 18:45
by beaujack
Goodnight, Irene wrote:Ezzard wrote:If we take Greb out of the argument then who is next in line. That's sort of more interesting because it's hard to argue witb Harry (or beaujack)...
Actually I'm interested in beaujack's #2.
Mine is Monzon.
Yes, my #2 is Monzon.
Robinson and Hagler are next in line but really, I envision Monzon as beating either.
As I place Harry Greb #1 MW because of his unlimited stamina,whirlwind offense, reigning blows from every conceivable angle, and great chin, combined with a rubbery pair of legs bouncing to and fro, Harry Greb accomplished a record as a MW, second to none...Some people say, "well we never see him on film". But we DO SEE some films of his great victims...After all we may not see a tornado, but we SEE the AFTERMATH...So with Harry Greb...
As for NO.#2 MW. H2H ,I don't see Carlos Monzon beating the MW Ray Robinson that destroyed tough Bobo Olson 3 times, Gene Fullmer,etc. I think that this Sugar Ray, even past his peak, hit much faster than the more plodding Monzon and was almost as tall...As we know speed kills and RR had handspeed to spare...Even though we see only 2 films of Stanley Ketchel [against Billy Papke in their last bout when Ketchel broke a bone, and against the great HW,Jack Johnson], Ketchel by all measures was a dynamic puncher, tough as nails, who I rate over Monzon,at their bests H2H... Based on what I see and his record, I have Freddie Steele who was almost unbeaten in ten years til he broke a breastbone against Fred Apostoli, to beat Monzon. Steele was a great boxer and a powerful two handed puncher who came from a talent rich MW era. I give a Marvin Hagler, a Tony Zale [pre WW2]
a good shot to beat Monzon...And let us not forget the tough Toy Bulldog, Mickey Walker a very good chance to beat Monzon...Walker loved the big boys...
