BoxRec

OK. Here's the premise:
Let's say that rather than setting up the eliminator between Ken Norton & Duane Bobick in May of '77 ( can that fight have been 35 YEARS ago?!! Damn, sitting down to watch it excited with anticipation at 15 years old does NOT seen that long ago... ), Ali decided to just go ahead & meet Bobick at MSG rather than wasting his time with the undeserving Alfredo Evangelista.
What do YOU think would have happened?

Me?
Well, I believe that at that point in time, there's a very good chance that Bobick would have beat Ali.
Looking back on how disappointing his career turned out to be, I suppose some of you may consider this a bit of a joke, but honestly, under the circumstances that existed at the time, I'd pick Bobick on points.
Sure, as we know now, Bobick wasn't particularly world class in the chin department. But, then again, Norton, Knoetze & Tate weren't exactly powder puff punchers either ( his KO by 7 to George Chaplin was on cuts ). And, at the end of his career, Ali really did suffer from a power outage. And after being further softened up by Norton III, he had very little snap on the end of his shots anymore. So, I just don't see Ali replacing Norton as being the first won to exploit Bobick's chin.
So, we're most likely looking at a distance fight. With Bobick having just the sort of style to exploit Ali's fading skill level & physical condition. Not to mention that he had Eddie Futch in his corner. A trainer whothrowing more punches than Shavers did & in combinations was an expert at preparing guys to beat Ali.
Having said all this, I'm about 99% certain that Bobick would have beaten the bored, listless Ali that did as little as possible over 15 dull rounds to beat Evangelista that May. But, knowing that he was facing a much better fighter than that, I'm sure that we'd have seen the much better prepared, fit Ali that appeared later that year vs Earnie Shavers.
You might say that, well, is that Ali could beat Shavers then surely he would've beaten Bobick. And, I think there's a chance that he just might have. But...
Styles make fights. And even though Shavers was a better, much more dangerous fighter than Duane Bobick, Bobick would have pressured Ali much more consistantly than Shavers did, thrown many more punches & thrown then in combinations rather than winging single grenades at Ali like Shavers did. And, Shavers did gas late, whereas Bobick was known for having good stamina. Plus, again, Bobick had Futch...

So, all that said now, what DO you think?

Jim

Ali would have won.
If by decision, it would have been a bad decision.
If the referee stopped it, it was premature.
If Bobick's corner stopped it, they shouldn't have.
If it ended in a ko, the referee screwed up the count.

Poor Ali was just such a victim in the late-70's

GI.....your attack on humor is uncalled for. What has humor ever done to you, that you feel the need to malign it so viciously?

However I think Bobick would fold......probably on his own accord.....just not ready for prime time...as he showed vs Norton.

After seeing how Duane Bobick fared against Ken Norton and Big John Tate, I have a hard time believing that he would have been competitive with Muhammad Ali even if the latter had badly eroded skills in 1977.

- Chuck Johnston

But, both Norton & Tate could both bang. Norton more so than Tate, but Tate could whack a bit.
Ali?
Putting aside Futch's pulling Frazier out of their final match after round 14, then the last world class opponent that Ali stopped was Ron Lyle in '75. And, even that was somewhat of a quick stoppage by the ref.
Sure, Ali put both Jean Pierre Coopman & Richard Dunn out in 5 rounds apiece, but they were FAR from being world class & their chins were made of 100% fine bone china. A stiff breeze was a threat to them.
By that point in time, Ali had no snap left on his shots at all. So, it's pretty unlikely he'd have hurt Bobick.
If he couldn't drop or stop Evangelista or Spinks, he wouldn't have done so to Bobick IMO.
As for Bobick's confidence issues, those didn't really surface until after he got bombed out by Norton in 54 seconds & let's not forget, the premise we're working on is that Ali skipped the Evangelista affair & gave the 38-0 Bobick a shot rather than having him fight the eliminator with Norton.

And no, in case you're wondering, I never was a big Bobick fan. I was a Norton fan first & foremost, but certainly would have rooted for Ali had he fought Bobick. But, that said, in my imagination had they met at that time, I think Ali may have lost a decision.
And then... Bobick would have fought his mandatory against Norton & been bombed out in a round. Giving Norton the linear, undisputed World Heavyweight Championship.

Before or after Bobick got KTFO in one by Earnie Shavers?

Brute wrote:Before or after Bobick got KTFO in one by Earnie Shavers?

You mean Norton, he never fought Shavers

??? Well maybe he's talkin' about the fight they had behind the Texaco station....non sanctioned?


Bobick fought Knoetzee....lost....but beat Weaver.....

He just seemed to choke in the clutch.....too much.

bluerosekiller wrote:But, both Norton & Tate could both bang. Norton more so than Tate, but Tate could whack a bit.
Ali?
Putting aside Futch's pulling Frazier out of their final match after round 14, then the last world class opponent that Ali stopped was Ron Lyle in '75. And, even that was somewhat of a quick stoppage by the ref.
Sure, Ali put both Jean Pierre Coopman & Richard Dunn out in 5 rounds apiece, but they were FAR from being world class & their chins were made of 100% fine bone china. A stiff breeze was a threat to them.
By that point in time, Ali had no snap left on his shots at all. So, it's pretty unlikely he'd have hurt Bobick.
If he couldn't drop or stop Evangelista or Spinks, he wouldn't have done so to Bobick IMO.
As for Bobick's confidence issues, those didn't really surface until after he got bombed out by Norton in 54 seconds & let's not forget, the premise we're working on is that Ali skipped the Evangelista affair & gave the 38-0 Bobick a shot rather than having him fight the eliminator with Norton.

And no, in case you're wondering, I never was a big Bobick fan. I was a Norton fan first & foremost, but certainly would have rooted for Ali had he fought Bobick. But, that said, in my imagination had they met at that time, I think Ali may have lost a decision.
And then... Bobick would have fought his mandatory against Norton & been bombed out in a round. Giving Norton the linear, undisputed World Heavyweight Championship.

It's a fair point, but what forces me to pick Ali in this matchup is Bobick's lack of speed. He was a well-schooled guy but not what anyone would call 'slick' (Bobick had a competitive slugfest with the truly awful Wepner before being bombed out by Norton) and he'd be there for Ali to pot-shot. Ali even in 77 would have a decisive speed advantage and it would be the difference maker.
Hell, Shavers was a bigger puncher than Bobick and had quicker hands and that Ali still had enough left to edge a close one. If he can beat Shavers at that stage, he can beat the more limited Bobick.

I considered those points as well & you could be right.
Though ( as much as I enjoyed Earnie's fights back in the day ), Shavers wasn't much for throwing combinations. He threw a lot of heavy leather Ali's way over 15 rounds, but as I recall it was one bomb at a time. Whereas, as slow as he may have been, Bobick kept his hands moving behind a jab & could keep up a steady amount of pressure once he got a head of steam going. Which, as we saw against Spinks less than a year later, caused Ali a LOT of problems.

Spinks did have a bit of speed behind his punches, mind. Bobick didnt.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Poor Ali was just such a victim in the late-70's

LOL, now Alp is crying about credit for hypothetical fights? Yeah, no bias there.

Ali would smash Bobick from a wheel chair.

bluerosekiller wrote:But, both Norton & Tate could both bang. Norton more so than Tate, but Tate could whack a bit.
Ali?
Putting aside Futch's pulling Frazier out of their final match after round 14, then the last world class opponent that Ali stopped was Ron Lyle in '75. And, even that was somewhat of a quick stoppage by the ref.
Sure, Ali put both Jean Pierre Coopman & Richard Dunn out in 5 rounds apiece, but they were FAR from being world class & their chins were made of 100% fine bone china. A stiff breeze was a threat to them.
By that point in time, Ali had no snap left on his shots at all. So, it's pretty unlikely he'd have hurt Bobick.
If he couldn't drop or stop Evangelista or Spinks, he wouldn't have done so to Bobick IMO.
As for Bobick's confidence issues, those didn't really surface until after he got bombed out by Norton in 54 seconds & let's not forget, the premise we're working on is that Ali skipped the Evangelista affair & gave the 38-0 Bobick a shot rather than having him fight the eliminator with Norton.

And no, in case you're wondering, I never was a big Bobick fan. I was a Norton fan first & foremost, but certainly would have rooted for Ali had he fought Bobick. But, that said, in my imagination had they met at that time, I think Ali may have lost a decision.
And then... Bobick would have fought his mandatory against Norton & been bombed out in a round. Giving Norton the linear, undisputed World Heavyweight Championship.

"100% fine bone china"

I love it.

Does anyone remember when poor Dunn was picking himself off the canvas that Ali was comically winding up his right arm preparing to hit Richard again?

My Dad and I watched that fight together and Dad got the biggest kick out of Ali winding up his right arm.

I remember that.

At one point Dunn was struck with a punch and sort of shuddered on the spot, as if struck by lightning

I also recall pathetic Ali shill Pacheco emphasising Dunn's, "heart."

Ali was made to look Tyson-esque, yet never again KO'd a man.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I remember that.

At one point Dunn was struck with a punch and sort of shuddered on the spot, as if struck by lightning

I also recall pathetic Ali shill Pacheco emphasising Dunn's, "heart."

Ali was made to look Tyson-esque, yet never again KO'd a man.

I went back and looked at the 4th and 5th rds of the Ali-Dunn fight on youtube.

I saw that punch where Dunn stayed up but did the shudder move. Dunn sure had the shudder dance down pat.

Dunn was no doubt a nice man, but how in hell did he ever win the Euro heavy title?

btw, that Ali windmill/windup action towards the very end of the fight that cracked up my Dad looks in retrospect to me like a very dickish move.

yancey wrote: Dunn was no doubt a nice man, but how in hell did he ever win the Euro heavy title?

The answer to that is Bernd August. How on earth he managed to beat Roy Williams I do not know.

Bluerosekiller, your posts and this thread are something different around here and commend you on a very enjoyable style of posting.

Any version of Ali would have beaten Bobick

mercman wrote:

hhaehre wrote:

yancey wrote: Dunn was no doubt a nice man, but how in hell did he ever win the Euro heavy title?

The answer to that is Bernd August. How on earth he managed to beat Roy Williams I do not know.

Dunn had a poor chin and virtually all his losses were by stoppage. However, if you couldn't knock him out he would usually win on points. Dunn was a tall, awkward shouthpaw and had good stamina. If Williams wasn't able to land clean on him it's not that surprising to me that Dunn outpointed him.

Ex-para Richard Dunn was a hard man.

But obviously nowhere near as hard as Irene and Nancy and Nancy's dad granberry.

They define hardness.

"Stand by your maaaan..."

Im pretty sure I could manage to react to 1977 Ali's, "power," less embarrassingly than Dunn D

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Stand by your maaaan..."

Im pretty sure I could manage to react to 1977 Ali's, "power," less embarrassingly than Dunn D

No doubt, you being a hard man AND a boxing expert.

Would it help if Nancy was giving you a reach-around at the same time?

Giancarlo wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Stand by your maaaan..."

Im pretty sure I could manage to react to 1977 Ali's, "power," less embarrassingly than Dunn D

No doubt, you being a hard man AND a boxing expert.

Would it help if Nancy was giving you a reach-around at the same time?

Collins, aren't you the one that Mr. Granberry referred to as "homosexually fixated".

Mr. Granberry seems to be right on the money, as usual.

I hope you find it as amusing as I do, Yance, that his ultimate aim is to enhance Dunn's credibility here and thus, make Ali look better

Long before Zab introduced us to the Judah Boogaloo, Richie showed us the Dunny Shudder