BoxRec

......you work on the Haye v Chisora show on the 14th of July?

Can they even do it, and wouldn't they have already done it to the licence holders involved in "white collar"/"Unlicensed" boxing?

It would have a massive impact if they did, leaving loads of boxers (not connected to the show) unable to fight due to being managerless, trainerless or without a promoter. MCs, Whips and Cutsmen would also be left in the cold damaging other future shows they could have been booked for.

The Board can't let this slide, IMO.

They've said that anyone involved will be called to a hearing and have given everyone forewarning that they feel involvement in the show is bringing the sport into disrepute.

You're right - there are huge practicalities involved. At the Board's rate of working, it will take until the end of 2015 to give everyone a hearing anyway, so there's a bit of breathing space.

It would be a very bold move if they did, but I think by carrying out they're threats they would make a massive negative impact in the sport. Would any champions who were managed by folk in violation of the boards stance be stripped?

if the board insisted on stripping the licenses they would make it more likely to us ending up with a second board , but then if they dont its not setting the right example .

i dont think theres much they can do to come out of this situation smelling of roses .

damianhucker1 wrote:if the board insisted on stripping the licenses they would make it more likely to us ending up with a second board , but then if they dont its not setting the right example .

i dont think theres much they can do to come out of this situation smelling of roses .

Welcome back Damien.

That's pretty much how I see it.

It depends how big their involvement in the show is

gobbles wrote:It depends how big their involvement in the show is

How do you differentiate?

Be under no doubt whatsover ,any current licence holder involved in any way with this promotion will be suspended - and contrary to opinions about the time it will take ,I would expect all those suspensions to commence BEFORE September 2012 .

I have no inside knowledge but I've reached these conclusions simply by logic . First of all , if they don't suspend them it will mean that the exercise was simply 'sabre rattling ' and they will lose credibility and control thereby allowing the same thing to happen repeatedly. Secondly , if they allow the issue to continue too long , licence holders who face suspension will continue to work at Board shows in the knowledge that they have usurped the Boards rules by working at what they consider an 'unlicensed show ' .

I suspect that the main man will have told all those involved that they will have nothing to worry about and that he will use his lawyers to ensure that they don't get suspended . Well , that's a risky strategy , because lawyers or not , if he's wrong, and the Boards lawyers obviously think he is or they would not have allowed the Board to send out the letters, a number of good young boxers , their trainers and ringside officials will be looking to take part in another sport ,or further unlicensed shows ( according to the Board ) for the next year or so .

Personally , now that an announcement has been made about the undercard , if I was the Board I would send further letters out to those named as being involved ,reminding them that they will be called up if they follow through . In any future legal proceedings this would show them in a good light ,as being fair and transparent .

In this country I have never known of a national governing body of a sport losing a court case on a matter of jurisdiction . I suspect the Board will rigorously defend their position in court , if it comes to that .

The Board , I believe , will suspend all those involved . If someone wants to challenge that in a court of law , they can , but the suspensions will continue until the court makes a decision and that could take years . ( as good as a suspension ) .

The man himself , love him or hate him , has been good for boxing and has put on some great fights . I hope he is not the man who eventually ends organised professional boxing in this country.

PS I STILL don't believe the show will go ahead ( Haye back injury or something similar ) but as it gets nearer the time I'm starting to doubt myself !!!

dalcumly wrote:Be under no doubt whatsover ,any current licence holder involved in any way with this promotion will be suspended - and contrary to opinions about the time it will take ,I would expect all those suspensions to commence BEFORE September 2012 .

I have no inside knowledge but I've reached these conclusions simply by logic . First of all , if they don't suspend them it will mean that the exercise was simply 'sabre rattling ' and they will lose credibility and control thereby allowing the same thing to happen repeatedly. Secondly , if they allow the issue to continue too long , licence holders who face suspension will continue to work at Board shows in the knowledge that they have usurped the Boards rules by working at what they consider an 'unlicensed show ' .

I suspect that the main man will have told all those involved that they will have nothing to worry about and that he will use his lawyers to ensure that they don't get suspended . Well , that's a risky strategy , because lawyers or not , if he's wrong, and the Boards lawyers obviously think he is or they would not have allowed the Board to send out the letters, a number of good young boxers , their trainers and ringside officials will be looking to take part in another sport ,or further unlicensed shows ( according to the Board ) for the next year or so .

Personally , now that an announcement has been made about the undercard , if I was the Board I would send further letters out to those named as being involved ,reminding them that they will be called up if they follow through . In any future legal proceedings this would show them in a good light ,as being fair and transparent .

In this country I have never known of a national governing body of a sport losing a court case on a matter of jurisdiction . I suspect the Board will rigorously defend their position in court , if it comes to that .

The Board , I believe , will suspend all those involved . If someone wants to challenge that in a court of law , they can , but the suspensions will continue until the court makes a decision and that could take years . ( as good as a suspension ) .

The man himself , love him or hate him , has been good for boxing and has put on some great fights . I hope he is not the man who eventually ends organised professional boxing in this country.

PS I STILL don't believe the show will go ahead ( Haye back injury or something similar ) but as it gets nearer the time I'm starting to doubt myself !!!

the bold part is the grey area , the board arent a national governing body , they appointed themselves , no different to the ebf etc , they just decided themselves that they were in charge , the license holders themselves can bring them down any time they wanted really , this is where they may struggle in court , as who is to say their way is the right way ?

Damien,

You will know a hell of a lot more than me on this.... but surely the BBBoC are the national body - even if they are self appointed.

Even if they are not the national body - they are very different to the EBF. Otherwise why hasn't an EBF fighter ever featured in any rankings - whether that is commonwealth rankings or whatever.

In addition, okay even if they are no different to the EBF - they still hold the "rights" to the Lonsdale belt and the clout within the EBU etc. I can evisage a "split" where we might have two British champions. However, don't the EBF already have belts for fights - so in essence we already have this type of split.

so who is more senior..the BBB of C or the EBU.

is britain bigger than Europe....although we have our own government we are still under influence from the EU and we act on and react to their decisions.

If britain was not in the EU then the show would be illegal, simple as that. but we are in it and therefore the show is legal...simple as.

rhino222 wrote:so who is more senior..the BBB of C or the EBU.

is britain bigger than Europe....although we have our own government we are still under influence from the EU and we act on and react to their decisions.

If britain was not in the EU then the show would be illegal, simple as that. but we are in it and therefore the show is legal...simple as.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether the show can go ahead from a legal stand point.
The Board are not a statutory institution so its impossible to ban/outlaw other organisations putting on "boxing" shows, but can the Board pull the licences legally, and will they considering the ramifications I outlined?

The Insider wrote:

rhino222 wrote:so who is more senior..the BBB of C or the EBU.

is britain bigger than Europe....although we have our own government we are still under influence from the EU and we act on and react to their decisions.

If britain was not in the EU then the show would be illegal, simple as that. but we are in it and therefore the show is legal...simple as.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether the show can go ahead from a legal stand point.
The Board are not a statutory institution so its impossible to ban/outlaw other organisations putting on "boxing" shows, but can the Board pull the licences legally, and will they considering the ramifications I outlined?

i dont think the board can do anything as a whole legal issue will open up if they try to. they cannot simply withdraw people right to earn a crust just because they dont approve of something that is being done legally.

rhino222 wrote:

The Insider wrote:

rhino222 wrote:so who is more senior..the BBB of C or the EBU.

is britain bigger than Europe....although we have our own government we are still under influence from the EU and we act on and react to their decisions.

If britain was not in the EU then the show would be illegal, simple as that. but we are in it and therefore the show is legal...simple as.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether the show can go ahead from a legal stand point.
The Board are not a statutory institution so its impossible to ban/outlaw other organisations putting on "boxing" shows, but can the Board pull the licences legally, and will they considering the ramifications I outlined?

i dont think the board can do anything as a whole legal issue will open up if they try to. they cannot simply withdraw people right to earn a crust just because they dont approve of something that is being done legally.

They aren't stopping you earning. You just won't be able to earn with them. I wish we could get a definitive answer on this.

yes but they will be stopping you earning in the boundaries of this country, why should the average man have to travel to europe to work. of course i realise this will only be the case if the show is a one off...but if it becomes regular then the BBB of C will diminish to an insignificant nothing.

rhino222 wrote:yes but they will be stopping you earning in the boundaries of this country, why should the average man have to travel to europe to work. of course i realise this will only be the case if the show is a one off...but if it becomes regular then the BBB of C will diminish to an insignificant nothing.

You've already said it mate....if.

You won't have to travel to Europe. You can become a lux box member and have fights whenever they are arranged for you with this organisation. You just gotta wait till your promoter puts his next show on and he contacts your manager. If you have been warned and warned again I can't see as you have an argument really.

rhino222 wrote:yes but they will be stopping you earning in the boundaries of this country, why should the average man have to travel to europe to work.

No they won't. Licence holders (or former ones) can still box for LBF in this country, EBF or whoever. They just won't be part of the BBBoC club because they don't want to follow it's rules.

dondada wrote:

rhino222 wrote:yes but they will be stopping you earning in the boundaries of this country, why should the average man have to travel to europe to work.

No they won't. Licence holders (or former ones) can still box for LBF in this country, EBF or whoever. They just won't be part of the BBBoC club because they don't want to follow it's rules.

As stated in my previous post, this logically, is how I see it. It's just a big mess isn't it and I can't see any easy way out.

Interesting discussion .

But on one issue I think we can agree. We can consider the BBB of C a 'club ' with members . For around 90 years it has been responsible , without opposition , for licensing ( authorising ) professional boxing in the UK for its members . Like all 'clubs' those who breach the rules can be suspended or expelled . I'm pretty certain the courts would uphold that position . Expelled or suspended members can continue to box if they like , outwith the 'club ' . So there is no restriction of trade .
If other members chose to leave the ' club ' and start another ' club' they are legally entitled to do so . This is the BIG ISSUE . I haven't heard (yet ) of any other licence holders , outwith , the man's domain , who are willing to join a new 'club ' . If that remains the case ( and I sincerely hope it does ) both himself , his TV company and his 'people' have a real problem . Especially if the EBU 'club' and the WBC 'club' don't let them in . He does of course have the WBA and WBO 'clubs' who want to work with him , but I would suspect that the BBB of C and the EBU would no longer work with therse other organisations .

Its a very similar to a situation whereby , for instance , a major country disagrees with a decision by FIFA and decide to go its own way and form another worldwide governing body . They may have some support but what would happen is that all the players and officials who chose to play under the new body would be expelled from FIFA and at thened of the day the future would depend on how widespread the split was .
But I'm certain the Board will not back down and nobody else will leave ,leaving the 'others' totally isolated .
This is when the boxing media need to step in and commit themselves one way or another . Either support the mess , or starve them of publicity .

It all depends how many people back the board, if there are a large number of boxers, trainers manager etc taking work on this unsanctioned show, esp if they are established and high profile, it would be difficult to ban the lot and very damaging.
If there are only a few there will be no problem in banning them.
I think the board have acted well so far and very much hope they end up on top.

Rhino,

If the EBU suspends the LBF then it is illegal.

Also, whilst we are entitled to work anywhere in the EU we don't have the exact same rights as members with a passport of a particular EU country (e.g. we cannot vote in the general election of Luxemberg for example). The BBBoC can suspend whoever they want to - nothing really anyone can do about it.

An interesting scenario, and one that hasn't been discussed, is say for example - Frankie Gavin fights on the bill. He loses his BBBoC licence, what happens if after the fight he "retires" and therefore gives back his LBF licence. Would the BBBoC have a right (based around human rights) to at least allow him to apply for a BBBoC licence. If they reject him, could he take them to court - for like an unfair rejection - given that he would pass all the medicals etc.

I hope I haven't put ideas into peoples head.... best scenario would be to scrap this silly fight. Wait until both have BBBoC licences. The BBBoC have now seen the appeal this fight has with the public, they will want to be a part of it.

dondada wrote:

rhino222 wrote:yes but they will be stopping you earning in the boundaries of this country, why should the average man have to travel to europe to work.

No they won't. Licence holders (or former ones) can still box for LBF in this country, EBF or whoever. They just won't be part of the BBBoC club because they don't want to follow it's rules.

Spot on dondada

stujones wrote:
An interesting scenario, and one that hasn't been discussed, is say for example - Frankie Gavin fights on the bill. He loses his BBBoC licence, what happens if after the fight he "retires" and therefore gives back his LBF licence. Would the BBBoC have a right (based around human rights) to at least allow him to apply for a BBBoC licence. If they reject him, could he take them to court - for like an unfair rejection - given that he would pass all the medicals etc.

I suppose it depends on what grounds/regulation they suspend/ban him on. In theory the board could give him a 5 year ban if they were cute, which would effectively see out his days as a boxer.

if the BBBoC carry otu with these threats it will bite them in the ass in the courts. Read Warrens statements on the matter, he makes a good legal arguement and he's the kind of guy who would sue his own mother.

desperados wrote:if the BBBoC carry otu with these threats it will bite them in the ass in the courts. Read Warrens statements on the matter, he makes a good legal arguement and he's the kind of guy who would sue his own mother.

Where can I find these statements pal? I watched the Bruce Baker interview Rob Waterman conducted on YouTube and he made a very good argument. This was before the lbf was kicked out of the EBU though.