BoxRec

In a story carried in numerous US newspapers of the day, in a 4-round exhibition match in preparation for the upcoming Jack Johnson-Stanley Ketchel championship fight, US Sailor Edward "Gunboat" Smith dropped champion Johnson in the second minute of the last round and had Lil' Artha in such a state of befuddlement that his manager jumped in and cut the bout short.


Makes you wonder how Smith would've done against Johnson when he hit his stride in 1912-13.


Cap

Cap wrote:In a story carried in numerous US newspapers of the day, in a 4-round exhibition match in preparation for the upcoming Jack Johnson-Stanley Ketchel championship fight, US Sailor Edward "Gunboat" Smith dropped champion Johnson in the second minute of the last round and had Lil' Artha in such a state of befuddlement that his manager jumped in and cut the bout short.


Makes you wonder how Smith would've done to Johnson when he hit his stride in 1912-13.


Cap

i have seen this cause some trouble elsewhere

Exhibition, i think is a bit too strong a word. In those days exhibition often pretty much meant a real fight, but not in this case, it seems it was more of a sparring session from what i can gather. Also, if memory serves me correct, wasnt the exhibition the 3rd or 4th 4 round fight JOhnson fought for the day, and Gunboat an unknown who had just arrived? Gunboat did obviously have a big punch, but even in his prime he was not in Johnson's class. Not that that is a problem, not many were, in fact some might even tell you that none were.

AS a matter of interest, what do you say about stories that Tommy Burns was jaundiced against Jack, but still managed to break johnson's ribs?

I've heard those stories too. Unfortunately, they didn't have the intrusive press that we have today, or we'd know every last detail about that fight in living colour, via webcasts too.

Cap

It was a sparring session, not an exhibition. Today we tend to think of an exhibition as an organized, pre-scheduled event for the public, or members of the public. This was a training session. Sometimes the wording used in those days can be deceptive. It may have been written something like "Today Jack Johnson and Gunboat Smith gave an exhibition of boxing that delighted those fans who attended Johnson's camp to watch the champ prepare for his upcoming defense against Stanley Ketchel... blah blah blah" This doesnt mean that it was an exhibition as we now recognize today but that his abilities, or training was literally on EXHIBIT.

Cap wrote:In a story carried in numerous US newspapers of the day, in a 4-round exhibition match in preparation for the upcoming Jack Johnson-Stanley Ketchel championship fight, US Sailor Edward "Gunboat" Smith dropped champion Johnson in the second minute of the last round and had Lil' Artha in such a state of befuddlement that his manager jumped in and cut the bout short.


Makes you wonder how Smith would've done against Johnson when he hit his stride in 1912-13.


Cap

Gunboat made Lil' Artha cry uncle? Was this a fake news story, or did it really happen?

In the book "In This Corner", Smith talked about this. He said he worked with Johnson. To me this sounds like sparring. He said he knocked Johnson through the ropes. Johnson was very impressed with Smith. Interestingly enough, Smith said he boxed with Ketchel a few rounds earlier in the day.

There are contemporary accounts of the sparring session the following day. I also have a newspaper article written by Smith himself a year or two later where he details the story.

I talked with the Gunner over a root beer with Bill Mauldin and the Emperor Haile Selassie whom all the guys called Bert.



Cap

Wouldnt surprise me Gunboat Smith was one of the ATG power punchers, alongside Shavers and McVey.

bump

It's a bullcrap story planted by promoters of Johnson-Ketchel... They wanted fans to think Johnson could be taken by a lighter man.

It belongs there with stories of the Phantom Punch... The first Dempsey-Flynn Fight, which was bogus... Duilio Loi getting trashed by a smaller man in a street fight, which was embellished... and Primo Carnera only winning the title only because all his opponents took dives... They didn't.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 13:56 It's a bullcrap story planted by promoters of Johnson-Ketchel... They wanted fans to think Johnson could be taken by a lighter man.

It belongs there with stories of the Phantom Punch... The first Dempsey-Flynn Fight, which was bogus... Duilio Loi getting trashed by a smaller man in a street fight, which was embellished... and Primo Carnera only winning the title only because all his opponents took dives... They didn't.

Well, with Primo there is some documentation that monies were paid....so perhaps Primo won honestly, a convenient thing for those who were paid. The problem with that sort of knowledge, is that folks....(like myself) then have a hard time believing what was and what was not historically accurate. Sort of the ol' "fool me once, fool me twice"

You seem to have so much first hand knowledge of what does and does not transpire in this world.........it's as if your time machine is up and running at full power. Couldn't you use that thing for even better things than bringing a crystal clear understanding of pugilism to the world at large?

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 14:50

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 13:56 It's a bullcrap story planted by promoters of Johnson-Ketchel... They wanted fans to think Johnson could be taken by a lighter man.

It belongs there with stories of the Phantom Punch... The first Dempsey-Flynn Fight, which was bogus... Duilio Loi getting trashed by a smaller man in a street fight, which was embellished... and Primo Carnera only winning the title only because all his opponents took dives... They didn't.

Well, with Primo there is some documentation that monies were paid....so perhaps Primo won honestly, a convenient thing for those who were paid. The problem with that sort of knowledge, is that folks....(like myself) then have a hard time believing what was and what was not historically accurate. Sort of the ol' "fool me once, fool me twice"

You seem to have so much first hand knowledge of what does and does not transpire in this world.........it's as if your time machine is up and running at full power. Couldn't you use that thing for even better things than bringing a crystal clear understanding of pugilism to the world at large?

It's impossible for people of limited intelligence, such as yourself, to gain a crystal clear understanding of pugilism. You refuse to even LOOK at any evidence that doesn't jib with your sloppy and warped thinking. "Those who were paid" ... WHO was paid???? WHO????

WHERE'S that documentation that bribes were paid Carnera's opponents??? (such as Jack Sharkey when he got knocked out by Carnera and lost the most VALUABLE prize in sports)... You can't produce such documentation because it doesn't exist.. Sharkey would have to have been paid a MASSIVE amount of money to abandon the prestige and monetary value of being Heavyweight Champion of the World at that time.

There was never any change in Sharkey's lifestyle or living standard... He fought the murderous Joe Louis for what would been chickenfeed were he Heavyweight Champion of the World.. I suppose he was just desperate for money right? ... You apparently believe challengers Paulino Uzcudun and Tommy Loughran also let Carnera win, and let the Heavyweight Championship slip from their grasp.. Documentation please...

All you can do is repeat crap other rumor mongers and speculators invented.. You're unreachable.

For more details see the Gunboat Smith's crazy tough resume thread on this forum concerning the sparring match between the two.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 17:04

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 14:50

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 13:56 It's a bullcrap story planted by promoters of Johnson-Ketchel... They wanted fans to think Johnson could be taken by a lighter man.

It belongs there with stories of the Phantom Punch... The first Dempsey-Flynn Fight, which was bogus... Duilio Loi getting trashed by a smaller man in a street fight, which was embellished... and Primo Carnera only winning the title only because all his opponents took dives... They didn't.

Well, with Primo there is some documentation that monies were paid....so perhaps Primo won honestly, a convenient thing for those who were paid. The problem with that sort of knowledge, is that folks....(like myself) then have a hard time believing what was and what was not historically accurate. Sort of the ol' "fool me once, fool me twice"

You seem to have so much first hand knowledge of what does and does not transpire in this world.........it's as if your time machine is up and running at full power. Couldn't you use that thing for even better things than bringing a crystal clear understanding of pugilism to the world at large?

It's impossible for people of limited intelligence, such as yourself, to gain a crystal clear understanding of pugilism. You refuse to even LOOK at any evidence that doesn't jib with your sloppy and warped thinking. "Those who were paid" ... WHO was paid???? WHO????

WHERE'S that documentation that bribes were paid Carnera's opponents??? (such as Jack Sharkey when he got knocked out by Carnera and lost the most VALUABLE prize in sports)... You can't produce such documentation because it doesn't exist.. Sharkey would have to have been paid a MASSIVE amount of money to abandon the prestige and monetary value of being Heavyweight Champion of the World at that time.

There was never any change in Sharkey's lifestyle or living standard... He fought the murderous Joe Louis for what would been chickenfeed were he Heavyweight Champion of the World.. I suppose he was just desperate for money right? ... You apparently believe challengers Paulino Uzcudun and Tommy Loughran also let Carnera win, and let the Heavyweight Championship slip from their grasp.. Documentation please...

All you can do is repeat crap other rumor mongers and speculators invented.. You're unreachable.

Nope not a shred of evidence on the Sharkey fight.....unless you watch the fight and can loosely assess what is going on..... And I guess you are saying there was NO evidence EVER that Primo was assisted in some matches by way of "investing". Seems to me the only reading you do on this subject is the numbers that the ring card girls have written as they tour the squared circle between rounds.

Caractacus wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 17:07 For more details see the Gunboat Smith's crazy tough resume thread on this forum concerning the sparring match between the two.

Gunboat had a crazy WEAK resume leading up to sparring sessions with Jack Johnson for the Ketchel Fight.

He had only ONE (1) professional fight experience against a debuting boxer... His 4 listed previous fights were an exhibition match and 3 amateur fights... Except for losing a 4-round newspaper exhibition to Denver Ed Martin he had no significant opponent whatsoever at that time.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 17:25
Nope not a shred of evidence on the Sharkey fight.....unless you watch the fight and can loosely assess what is going on..

Right...you admit there's no evidence.. Care to list ANY newspaper articles that thought the fight was suspicious??? There were dozens of newspaper writers at the fight.. But I guess you're relying on your lone eyeball as usual -- and your lone brain cell getting revved up.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 17:54

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 17:25
Nope not a shred of evidence on the Sharkey fight.....unless you watch the fight and can loosely assess what is going on..

Right...you admit there's no evidence.. Care to list ANY newspaper articles that thought the fight was suspicious??? There were dozens of newspaper writers at the fight.. But I guess you're relying on your lone eyeball as usual -- and your lone brain cell getting revved up.

Now stop having a laugh at my expense......though it's probably your only chance at positive cash flow in this decade.

There is no evidence on that fight....and Sharkey does seem to invite the Alp to tea in that fight....surely you know I"m not the only one who "imagines" something was going on. You see, when I make guesses...I clearly take ownership. Now there were some clearly documented instances of some shady fights that Primo fought.....earlier on in his career, when paying to erase the act wasn't in the budget. It has to make folks wonder......and that's all it is. But you seem to KNOW all things....so when I'm in doubt...I can always check with you. Because your imagination is certifiable.

You're freakin' out BuzzBox... You're out there in outer space, traipsing through moonbeams... You don't call someone's victories into question because YOUR imagination is running wild thinking Sharkey is taking all those hard punches on purpose... Sharkey WON a very tough decision in his FIRST go around with Carnera.. He took some hard punches in that fight to secure the victory.. He knew the rematch would be no picnic if Carnera got better in the interim.. BTW, that was only the 2nd KO loss of Sharkey's career.. He'd only been cooled by Dempsey to that point.

And BTW... Watch the Baer fight. Max was running almost full tilt at times from the huge Carnera.. It was his chin that won him that fight because Carnera landed some pretty fair punches on Baer -- who wasn't the greatest defender and relied on his outstanding chin and powerful swings.. It took Baer 11 rounds to wear Carnera down.. Like Buster Douglas, I think that was one of the few fights where Baer got himself ready.

Discipline and boxers don't generally go together.

Check the record... See how much experience Gunboat Smith had before a peak Jack Johnson defended the Heavyweight Title against Ketchel.

Then tell me if you think he could have put Johnson down, much less "Flatten" him.. Negative stories about Johnson were invented all the time.

It's the type of thing that eventually led to the tabloid industry -- because the public eats up negative gossip -- no matter how ludicrous.

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 20:39 Check the record... See how much experience Gunboat Smith had before a peak Jack Johnson defended the Heavyweight Title against Ketchel.

Then tell me if you think he could have put Johnson down, much less "Flatten" him.. Negative stories about Johnson were invented all the time.

It's the type of thing that eventually led to the tabloid industry -- because the public eats up negative gossip -- no matter how ludicrous.

So what your saying is...."check the record, then just imagine". Not a terrible prescription....but you just said it was a placebo, that one should never do that. Make up your mind or your going to lose a patient.

You would make a very bad doctor.....However you might be able to play one on T.V.

BoxBuzz wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 22:56

Kalan wrote: ↑27 Nov 2017, 20:39 Check the record... See how much experience Gunboat Smith had before a peak Jack Johnson defended the Heavyweight Title against Ketchel.

Then tell me if you think he could have put Johnson down, much less "Flatten" him.. Negative stories about Johnson were invented all the time.

It's the type of thing that eventually led to the tabloid industry -- because the public eats up negative gossip -- no matter how ludicrous.

So what your saying is...."check the record, then just imagine". Not a terrible prescription....but you just said it was a placebo, that one should never do that. Make up your mind or your going to lose a patient.

You would make a very bad doctor.....However you might be able to play one on T.V.

I'm not saying anything of the kind. That's you traipsing through moonbeams again. You fall for any odd story and urban myth out there. There's "The record" and then there's bullcrap stories that aren't to be believed ... this is one of those.

There's a saying that goes "Never believe anything you read and half of what you see." Cynical sayings like that exist for a reason. People lie. I believe most of what I read because most of the time people don't have an agenda or a reason to lie. However they often do. There was a law passed specifically targeted at Johnson -- to have have him arrested and imprisoned. "Transporting women across state lines for immoral purposes."

Because Johnson associated with white women and married them, and basically behaved as if color differences didn't exist, he was an outrage to some people in white society. Although many white folks could care less about color they didn't do much to stop the idiots for whom it was an issue -- for fear of being targeted themselves.. So in the context of that period in history -- and the many false accusations leveled at Johnson -- you have to take stories of his sparring sessions with white men which were little more than rumors.

Ask yourself: How big was Gunboat Smith? (not very)... How many professional fights did Smith have at the time? (1) ... How many experienced fighters had he faced? (1 in a 4-rounder) ... Had he beaten any experienced fighters? (no he lost) ... So he's sparring the best Heavyweight in the world ... who's been widely acknowledged for generations as one of the greatest boxers in the annals of the sport ... and he "flattens" him.

Tell me another one...