BoxRec

Middleweights

March 1975_____________May 1994_____________January 2001______________2004 Ring Yearbook

1.Stanley Ketchel________1.Sugar Ray Robinson____1.Harry Greb______________1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson_____2.Carlos Monzon________2.Sugar Ray Robinson_______2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Harry Greb____________3.Harry Greb___________ 3.Carlos Monzon___________3.Carlos Monzon
4.Mickey Walker_________4.Stanley Ketchel_______4.Marvin Hagler____________4.Marvin Hagler
5.Billy Papke____________5.Marvin Hagler_________5.Jake LaMotta____________5.Jake LaMotta
6.Tony Zale__________________________________6.Charley Burley____________6.Charley Burley
7.Dick Tiger__________________________________7.Tiger Flowers____________7.Tiger Flowers
8.Tommy Ryan________________________________8.Stanley Ketchel__________8.Stanley Ketchel
9.Emile Griffith________________________________9.Mickey Walker___________ 9.Mickey Walker
10.Les Darcy_________________________________10.Billy Conn______________10.Billy Conn
____________________________________________11.Marcel Cerdan__________11.Marcel Cerdan
____________________________________________12.Tony Zale______________12.Tony Zale
____________________________________________13.Emile Griffith____________13.Emile Griffith
____________________________________________14.Dick Tiger______________14.Dick Tiger
____________________________________________15.Gene Fullmer____________15.Gene Fullmer
____________________________________________16.Bernard Hopkins__________16.Rodrigo Valdez
____________________________________________17.Rodrigo Valdez__________17.Bob Fitzsimmons
____________________________________________18.Bob Fitzsimmons_________18.Tommy Ryan
____________________________________________19.Tommy Ryan____________19.Joey Giardello
____________________________________________20.Joey Giardello___________20.Nonpareil Jack Dempsey

First thing I notice is that Ketchel’s status dropped quickly.

I guess Monzon and Hagler coming into the equation would have an impact. And with the internet providing us all with easier research tools then guys like Burley were soon to be boosted. Surprised though that LaMotta is rated higher than Stanley.

Papke goes from 5th to nowhere. That surprises me too.

Somebody needs to do some research on Holman Williams.

Jake LaMotta v Mickey Walker

Any takers?

I think Jake is too high on this list.

I'll take Mickey by pretty clear decision, agreed LaMotta is too high.

It's very interesting comparing the different rankings.

Regarding Ketchel, the only thing that changed were the people rating him.

The whole list is a joke given its inconsistencies (no hopkins in 2004) and since it was done by several different editorial regimes its really just a list of different peoples different ratings at different times.

By and large the people doing the ratings love the sport and earn a living from it. They have enough expertise to know something.

In 1975 perhaps LaMotta was still not forgiven for his dive… Didn’t he only get into The Ring’s HOF in about 85?

Ezzard wrote:By and large the people doing the ratings love the sport and earn a living from it. They have enough expertise to know something.

In 1975 perhaps LaMotta was still not forgiven for his dive… Didn’t he only get into The Ring’s HOF in about 85?

Unquestionably on the earlier lists.....they did know their stuff. But at the same time they were hindered by the fact many of them had not seen some of the people who were or should be on the list actually fight....as this was naturally pre the internet era and pre the billl cayton selling his library to ESPN/Marshall Cavendish era.

The newer list in 2004, Im not so sure any of those people are experts they are not any more or less knowledgable than most the usual posters here on BOTP .

I was thinking the same about LaMotta re the 1975 thing... But i stick with my view that all the lists have alarming oddities......Hopkins missing in 2004, Monzon not being on the list in 1975 despite having been a distinguished champ for 5 years.....Lamotta.....etc

The only possible explanation for Monzon and Hopkins in 75 and 04 is that they were still active and thus their full body of work wasnt complete to be able to put them in a list....I would think that was poppycock as for one thing Hopkins is in the 01 list when he was still active...yet isnt in 04.....and by 75 everyone had seen enough of Monzon to know how he would likely fare...

mugabi wrote:The whole list is a joke given its inconsistencies (no hopkins in 2004) and since it was done by several different editorial regimes its really just a list of different peoples different ratings at different times.

It's just opinions and mine is that Ketchel is #1.

mugabi wrote:The newer list in 2004, Im not so sure any of those people are experts they are not any more or less knowledgable than most the usual posters here on BOTP .

Do you read these boards?

Ezzard wrote:By and large the people doing the ratings love the sport and earn a living from it. They have enough expertise to know something.

In 1975 perhaps LaMotta was still not forgiven for his dive… Didn’t he only get into The Ring’s HOF in about 85?

]

I dare say that La Motta's stock took a massive rise in 1980.

I agree . . Lamotta was a great fighter but the whole 'Raging Bull' mystique has ensured that he's subsequently been over-rated by many since that movie came out. Lamotta wouldn't make my top 10 let alone top 5.

Some very odd placements (Conn over Cerdan at 160??) but the Ring has always had fairly wackly lists.

Where is Arthur Abraham and Felix Sturm? Didn't a Ring article have them among the best middleweight champs of all time? I guess that's the next list . . .

I'm surprised Jimbo hasn't dropped by to remind us about the legendary Bert Gilroy.

Giancarlo wrote:I'm surprised Jimbo hasn't dropped by to remind us about the legendary Bert Gilroy.

..... or Ginger Sadd

Ezzard wrote:Middleweights

March 1975_____________May 1994_____________January 2001______________2004 Ring Yearbook

1.Stanley Ketchel________1.Sugar Ray Robinson____1.Harry Greb______________1.Harry Greb
2.Sugar Ray Robinson_____2.Carlos Monzon________2.Sugar Ray Robinson_______2.Sugar Ray Robinson
3.Harry Greb____________3.Harry Greb___________ 3.Carlos Monzon___________3.Carlos Monzon
4.Mickey Walker_________4.Stanley Ketchel_______4.Marvin Hagler____________4.Marvin Hagler
5.Billy Papke____________5.Marvin Hagler_________5.Jake LaMotta____________5.Jake LaMotta
6.Tony Zale__________________________________6.Charley Burley____________6.Charley Burley
7.Dick Tiger__________________________________7.Tiger Flowers____________7.Tiger Flowers
8.Tommy Ryan________________________________8.Stanley Ketchel__________8.Stanley Ketchel
9.Emile Griffith________________________________9.Mickey Walker___________ 9.Mickey Walker
10.Les Darcy_________________________________10.Billy Conn______________10.Billy Conn
____________________________________________11.Marcel Cerdan__________11.Marcel Cerdan
____________________________________________12.Tony Zale______________12.Tony Zale
____________________________________________13.Emile Griffith____________13.Emile Griffith
____________________________________________14.Dick Tiger______________14.Dick Tiger
____________________________________________15.Gene Fullmer____________15.Gene Fullmer
____________________________________________16.Bernard Hopkins__________16.Rodrigo Valdez
____________________________________________17.Rodrigo Valdez__________17.Bob Fitzsimmons
____________________________________________18.Bob Fitzsimmons_________18.Tommy Ryan
____________________________________________19.Tommy Ryan____________19.Joey Giardello
____________________________________________20.Joey Giardello___________20.Nonpareil Jack Dempsey

Interesting that Benvenuti does not make either of the above Top 20 Ring middleweight lists, yet some dude has him listed #6 on the Ring Top 10 '60s pfp list, ahead of no less than the great Dick Tiger.

Benvenuti certainly should be in the top 20. For some reason, he has always been a guy that people don't seem to remember.

Ambling Alp wrote:Benvenuti certainly should be in the top 20. For some reason, he has always been a guy that people don't seem to remember.

Yes, I can see Nino possibly making the top 20 middleweights of all-time, but he was certainly not better pfp than Tiger.

In fact, they met in '69 in a non-title fight and Tiger won decisively. There were only two pounds of difference in weights for that fight.

For me, Robinson is always The Number One (in both weight classes that he fought at).

But I'm glad to see that LaMotta is on the lists. It seems his ranking is going up through time.
He was a gret fighter though, so I wouldn't complain too much about that.

yancey wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Benvenuti certainly should be in the top 20. For some reason, he has always been a guy that people don't seem to remember.

Yes, I can see Nino possibly making the top 20 middleweights of all-time, but he was certainly not better pfp than Tiger.

In fact, they met in '69 in a non-title fight and Tiger won decisively. There were only two pounds of difference in weights for that fight.

I don't remember seeing that fight but thought that it was supposed to have been competitive. Regardless, I would rank Tiger ahead of Benvenuti pound for pound and as ranking middleweights, but not by a lot.
Griffith is # 13 and people are constantly saying how great he was. Benvenuti beat him two out of three. I have seen those fights and thought Benvenuti looked very good.

Interesting that Valdez is listed at #16. He still is not in the Hall of Fame.

yancey wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Benvenuti certainly should be in the top 20. For some reason, he has always been a guy that people don't seem to remember.

Yes, I can see Nino possibly making the top 20 middleweights of all-time, but he was certainly not better pfp than Tiger.

In fact, they met in '69 in a non-title fight and Tiger won decisively. There were only two pounds of difference in weights for that fight.

Tiger did win that fight decisively . . .kind of a forgotten achievement since the title wasn't on the line, but a past-it Tiger beating then champ Benvenuti was very impressive.

It is ironic to me because LaMotta (in his era and time mind you) fought at light heavyweight more often than not, and dropped to middleweight for the big important fights. Today he would of been a super middleweight, but the chunk of his career at least to me was at (in his time mind you) 175 pounds.

Where would we throw Hopkins into this list?

Looking over Ketchel's career he has some phenomenal victories. I think his wins probably trump Hagler's and Hopkins's...

list are impossible to be accurate and so hard to do. But for the FUN of it, I'll have a Run THROUGH the History of a H2H stab at it, Who might be the actual best of their periods AND overall...

Disclaimer, this isn't written in stone, but for FUN.

Nonpareil Dempsey
Ketchel, who am I to argue with the consensual history.

Greb
Walker

Steele
McAvoy
Apostili

Burley
Cerdan
SRR

Monzon

Hagler
Leonard
Hearns

Toney

BHop

GGG

and HATS OFF TO a good few Dozen More over the years who sit along side near enough equally.