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In a scenario where a 24 year old Joe Frazier won the World Heavyweight crown in 1978 off Spinks ,as opposed to 1968 and where Ali and Foreman were retired......how do you see Fraziers career unfolding during 78-79 and the entire 1980s..........surely his acension at this time would mean he would have to fight Holmes and Norton? Would he still have been champ as the 80s unfolded? How would he have fared with Shavers, Cooney and than the wave of talented black american HW's like Dokes,Page,Thomas,Witherspoon,Tubbs and punchers like Weaver and Smith and others.....? Would he still be at the top of his game to face his clone Mike Tyson in 1986? Or would he go the same way as his son Marvis by that stage....(for 1986 read 1976 in Joes actual career......and LOL would he still be around in 88-89 to face a comebacking George Foreman ?

mugabi wrote:In a scenario where a 24 year old Joe Frazier won the World Heavyweight crown in 1978 off Spinks ,as opposed to 1968 and where Ali and Foreman were retired......how do you see Fraziers career unfolding during 78-79 and the entire 1980s..........surely his acension at this time would mean he would have to fight Holmes and Norton? Would he still have been champ as the 80s unfolded? How would he have fared with Shavers, Cooney and than the wave of talented black american HW's like Dokes,Page,Thomas,Witherspoon,Tubbs and punchers like Weaver and Smith and others.....? Would he still be at the top of his game to face his clone Mike Tyson in 1986? Or would he go the same way as his son Marvis by that stage....(for 1986 read 1976 in Joes actual career......and LOL would he still be around in 88-89 to face a comebacking George Foreman ?

He kicks all their asses and has moved on to a music career before Tyson ever comes on the scene.

Then, after Tyson goes to jail and the obscenely obese George Foreman comes back on the scene, there is a huge public outcry for a great champ like Frazier to un-retire.

Joe comes back on the scene and punches the obscenely obese Foreman into a quivering, unrecognizable, unviable tissue mass. (hope GI reads this DD)

Joe then retires again.

Tyson gets out of jail. Joe trains him. Tyson becomes champ again.

That enough? Gotta go.

p.s. Most of those names you mention, except Holmes, don't belong in the same freaking time zone with prime Joe.

yancey wrote:p.s. Most of those names you mention, except Holmes, don't belong in the same freaking time zone with prime Joe.

You're right they don't, but a few of them could crack and would have a decent chance of pulling off an upset against Joe. Joe's one of my all time favorite fighters, but his style did lend itself to a certain amount of risk, primarily against big hitters. However, while a prime Frazier was susceptible to an upset, I think he was quick, skilled and smart enough to adapt and have few problems in rematches. He showed this against Ringo.

yancey wrote:

mugabi wrote:In a scenario where a 24 year old Joe Frazier won the World Heavyweight crown in 1978 off Spinks ,as opposed to 1968 and where Ali and Foreman were retired......how do you see Fraziers career unfolding during 78-79 and the entire 1980s..........surely his acension at this time would mean he would have to fight Holmes and Norton? Would he still have been champ as the 80s unfolded? How would he have fared with Shavers, Cooney and than the wave of talented black american HW's like Dokes,Page,Thomas,Witherspoon,Tubbs and punchers like Weaver and Smith and others.....? Would he still be at the top of his game to face his clone Mike Tyson in 1986? Or would he go the same way as his son Marvis by that stage....(for 1986 read 1976 in Joes actual career......and LOL would he still be around in 88-89 to face a comebacking George Foreman ?

He kicks all their asses and has moved on to a music career before Tyson ever comes on the scene.

Then, after Tyson goes to jail and the obscenely obese George Foreman comes back on the scene, there is a huge public outcry for a great champ like Frazier to un-retire.

Joe comes back on the scene and punches the obscenely obese Foreman into a quivering, unrecognizable, unviable tissue mass. (hope GI reads this DD)

Joe then retires again.

Tyson gets out of jail. Joe trains him. Tyson becomes champ again.

That enough? Gotta go.

p.s. Most of those names you mention, except Holmes, don't belong in the same freaking time zone with prime Joe.

Thats more than enough!!
Thank you!
But one last question......what kind of music would he retire to make? Would it be 70s stuff or would Joe be rapping like cameo and oran juice jones??

mugabi wrote:

yancey wrote:

mugabi wrote:In a scenario where a 24 year old Joe Frazier won the World Heavyweight crown in 1978 off Spinks ,as opposed to 1968 and where Ali and Foreman were retired......how do you see Fraziers career unfolding during 78-79 and the entire 1980s..........surely his acension at this time would mean he would have to fight Holmes and Norton? Would he still have been champ as the 80s unfolded? How would he have fared with Shavers, Cooney and than the wave of talented black american HW's like Dokes,Page,Thomas,Witherspoon,Tubbs and punchers like Weaver and Smith and others.....? Would he still be at the top of his game to face his clone Mike Tyson in 1986? Or would he go the same way as his son Marvis by that stage....(for 1986 read 1976 in Joes actual career......and LOL would he still be around in 88-89 to face a comebacking George Foreman ?

He kicks all their asses and has moved on to a music career before Tyson ever comes on the scene.

Then, after Tyson goes to jail and the obscenely obese George Foreman comes back on the scene, there is a huge public outcry for a great champ like Frazier to un-retire.

Joe comes back on the scene and punches the obscenely obese Foreman into a quivering, unrecognizable, unviable tissue mass. (hope GI reads this DD)

Joe then retires again.

Tyson gets out of jail. Joe trains him. Tyson becomes champ again.

That enough? Gotta go.

p.s. Most of those names you mention, except Holmes, don't belong in the same freaking time zone with prime Joe.

Thats more than enough!!
Thank you!
But one last question......what kind of music would he retire to make? Would it be 70s stuff or would Joe be rapping like cameo and oran juice jones??

Nah, Joe goes WAY back to Delta Blues music, rural Mississippi circa 1930, see the great Son House as an example of what I speak.

Or maybe he modernizes a bit and becomes another Howlin' Wolf. Smokestack Lightnin' seems like a good Joe song.

A guy with Frazier's style pretty much always burns twice as bright but also out twice as quickly. He could've been champ in '78, defeating Holmes in a superfight in '80, then kept his title until around 82 when Holmes, with a better style for an aging fighter would probably get him in a rubber match.

yancey wrote:

mugabi wrote:

yancey wrote: He kicks all their asses and has moved on to a music career before Tyson ever comes on the scene.

Then, after Tyson goes to jail and the obscenely obese George Foreman comes back on the scene, there is a huge public outcry for a great champ like Frazier to un-retire.

Joe comes back on the scene and punches the obscenely obese Foreman into a quivering, unrecognizable, unviable tissue mass. (hope GI reads this DD)

Joe then retires again.

Tyson gets out of jail. Joe trains him. Tyson becomes champ again.

That enough? Gotta go.

p.s. Most of those names you mention, except Holmes, don't belong in the same freaking time zone with prime Joe.

Thats more than enough!!
Thank you!
But one last question......what kind of music would he retire to make? Would it be 70s stuff or would Joe be rapping like cameo and oran juice jones??

Nah, Joe goes WAY back to Delta Blues music, rural Mississippi circa 1930, see the great Son House as an example of what I speak.

Or maybe he modernizes a bit and becomes another Howlin' Wolf. Smokestack Lightnin' seems like a good Joe song.

80's Joe becomes an iconic synth player in a new wave band.

The idea of Frazier and Holmes having a series of matches as opposed to Ali and Frazier is very interesting.

I cant see Holmes getting past Frazier. Joe was unlike anything Holmes faced in his peak.

Does anyone know of sparring sessions between Joe and Holmes???

mugabi wrote:

I cant see Holmes getting past Frazier. Joe was unlike anything Holmes faced in his peak.

indeed. I think Holmes would last the course but it'd be a very tough night for him

I think it would go like with Ali....Joe wins the first....but takes so much incoming....he can't repeat the performance.

Joe was in the 80's when he fought Floyd Jumbo Cummings, which in fact I think Joe actually won that fight though it was labeled a draw. He would go to the ends of the Earth in the hopes of getting ranked so he could fight Ali again; but Ali came up short against Holmes and Berbick. As for your scenario of Frazier in the 80's, he would have had some trouble with Witherspoon, Coetzee, Dokes, Cooney, Holmes and Tyson. I think of those guys Frazier would have lost to Holmes and possibly a points decision to Tyson, though I do think Cooney could have kayoed him albeit if Joe couldn't get passed Cooney's reach effectively. Judge me if you want but I never rated Frazier too highly, I thought he lost to Bonavena and he could be hurt/threatened by even mediocre opponents like Ron Stander. He just happened to be Ali's kryptonite due to the styles and Frazier's remarkable conditioning. I think the comebacking George Foreman would have beaten Joe had Frazier gotten his start in the 80's, just too powerful.

Really interesting insight Henry. I knew the 2 old foes made comebacks in 81 but didnt really appreciate that the plan was for Ali-Frazier 4!!!!! Boxing is one sport where 6 years can age a man 20 years in human terms...just so sad.

There are a few questions here:

mugabi wrote:Would he still have been champ as the 80s unfolded?

With confidence, I would say that he most definitely would have. Back in the early 1980s we had three World Heavyweioght titles and Smokin' Joe definitely would have had at least one of them. There's actually a great shout to say that Frazier becomes Undisputed Champion by unifying all three titles.

The big questions here are Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks... Though I think that Frazier probably would have beaten both of them.

mugabi wrote:How would he have fared with Shavers, Cooney and than the wave of talented black american HW's like Dokes,Page,Thomas,Witherspoon,Tubbs and punchers like Weaver and Smith and others.....?

Okay here's a quick breakdown on the fighters you mentioned.
Joe Frazier vs Earnie Shavers- a brawl, but it ends with Shavers getting KO'd. Joe could take the punishment, I'm not sure Earnie could.
Joe Frazier vs Gerry Cooney- Joe beats him by a TKO (similar to his 2nd win against Quarry)
Joe Frazier vs Michael Dokes- Joe wins by KO within 6
Joe Frazier vs Greg Page- Page on his best day might go 12 rounds with Joe, but he sure as hell can't stop him from getting a victory here.
Joe Frazier vs Pinklon Thomas- Again, Frazier wins by KO within 10 rounds.
Joe Frazier vs Tim Witherspoon- Joe wind by late stoppage.
Joe Frazier vs Tony Tubbs- Joe crushes him! Can't see this going 5 rounds.
Joe Frazier vs Mike Weaver- Joe wins in the first 4 rounds.
Joe Frazier vs Bonecrusher Smith- Could be a first round knockout for Smokin' Joe.

Basically the only fighters I can see giving Smokin' Joe trouble are; Witherspoon, Page and Thomas.

mugabi wrote:Would he still be at the top of his game to face his clone Mike Tyson in 1986?

He could be... And if he was, I'm afraid a tired, old Joe Frazier would not be able to stop a young and hungry Mike Tyson.

mugabi wrote:and LOL would he still be around in 88-89 to face a comebacking George Foreman ?

I really don't think so. Frazier's style of fighting meant he would have sustainted too much punishment over a prolonged period of time. Besides, I really can't see Frazier being that keen on fighting Foreman again, can you?

Crease...

Frazier would have crushes Spinks easily.

I think he beats Holmes too but that would be similar to the Ali fight(s).

He beats Bonecrusher but not by KO1, no chance. Smith had a great chin and had a great right hand too.

Might get starched in a one-off against one of the big punchers. "Might"...but he'd take revenge. Tyson could get to him early. "Could"

Really interesting reply crease, glad to read your thoughts......Old man Foreman v in essence a Frazier of 76-78 (here ostensibly 88-89)......like you i still think old man Foreman has all the moves to do a number again......Fraziers candle was always going to burn out before he got to the very late 80s in this scenario in my opinion

actually i believe frazier would of lost to holmes
frazier is only rated so highly because of his fights with ali

styles make fights...and holmes though constantly compared to ali
do not fight the same

frazier is the most over rated heavyweight on this forum

Il Duce wrote:September 1978.....Joe Frazier (KO 2) over Leon Spinks

January 1979........Joe Frazier (KO 3) Lorenzo Zanon
March 1979...........Joe Frazier (KO 4) Mike Koranicki
September 1979....Joe Frazier (TKO 10) Muhammad Ali

March 1980...........Larry Holmes (TKO 13) Joe Frazier

i agree

Hard to see Big Frank beating Joe. He'd have been right there on the inside putting him under pressure, I'm not sure Bruno would win that.

I'm not so sure, the Frazier of the Thrilla in Manilla would put holes in Frank.

MEISINGER wrote:actually i believe frazier would of lost to holmes
frazier is only rated so highly because of his fights with ali

styles make fights...and holmes though constantly compared to ali
do not fight the same

frazier is the most over rated heavyweight on this forum

You really are clueless on this matter. But you are good for a laugh, so hey.

Frazier is well inside the all-time Top 10 heavies list of most everyone with an informed opinion.

yancey wrote:

MEISINGER wrote:actually i believe frazier would of lost to holmes
frazier is only rated so highly because of his fights with ali

styles make fights...and holmes though constantly compared to ali
do not fight the same

frazier is the most over rated heavyweight on this forum

You really are clueless on this matter. But you are good for a laugh, so hey.

Frazier is well inside the all-time Top 10 heavies list of most everyone with an informed opinion.

why does stating an oppinion bring out the worst in people.
who besides ali did frazier beat that was with in smelling distance of top 10

foreman damn near killed joe.
ali had a style that made 3 of the greatest fights in history with frazier.

frazier was a very good fighter.but not top 10.
his accomplishments did not warrant it.

entertainig yes!!!!!all time great no

but you have a nice day

MEISINGER wrote:

yancey wrote:

MEISINGER wrote:actually i believe frazier would of lost to holmes
frazier is only rated so highly because of his fights with ali

styles make fights...and holmes though constantly compared to ali
do not fight the same

frazier is the most over rated heavyweight on this forum

You really are clueless on this matter. But you are good for a laugh, so hey.

Frazier is well inside the all-time Top 10 heavies list of most everyone with an informed opinion.

why does stating an oppinion bring out the worst in people.
who besides ali did frazier beat that was with in smelling distance of top 10

foreman damn near killed joe.
ali had a style that made 3 of the greatest fights in history with frazier.

frazier was a very good fighter.but not top 10.
his accomplishments did not warrant it.

entertainig yes!!!!!all time great no

but you have a nice day

Informed opinions don't bring out the worst in people.

Frazier is an all-time great. If you don't recognize that, then you are uninformed.

yancey what is with the personal attack

i have frazier in my top 20

since fraziers death ne is rising in popularity
with this forum to an all time rating that he did not earn in the ring

and top 20 is nothing to sneeze at
there are 25,000 other boxers in history that would love to be
that high

MEISINGER wrote:yancey what is with the personal attack

i have frazier in my top 20

since fraziers death ne is rising in popularity
with this forum to an all time rating that he did not earn in the ring

and top 20 is nothing to sneeze at
there are 25,000 other boxers in history that would love to be
that high

Nothing personal, you simply don't know what the hell you are talking about when you say Frazier is not an all-time great.