BoxRec

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I like Norton, but Tyson walks through him inside three rounds, maybe in one. Bad style matchup for Norton.

I also take Tyson early stoppage, Norton not going do good vs agressive punchers.

I also see it going the distance. With Norton being more problematic than either Tucker or ruddock...a scrappy bout with tyson winning a close 12 round decision .

Norton had a special knack of freezing up when facing KO hitters.

Tyson in one.

Freezing has nothing to do with it. Norton was just too easy to hit and would have had a hard time getting out of the first round against Tyson. Shavers and Foreman may have been taller, but Tyson was much quicker than either of them.

I think Norton never gets a chance to show how durable he is, because Mike gets to him too early. However, if he should fail at that Norton could endure a war of attrition should it go past 5. Might depend on what sort of judges you have as to the outcome, because Kenny could do much to even the score in the later rounds. I'd say a fight that goes the distance is close, favorng Kenny only slightly.

To put it simply I'd bet on Mike, though I don't hold Mike in as high regard as many of you.

BarryWashington wrote:are those fighters (spinks fighting 26 of his 32 fights at LHW and got W's over an 35 & 36 year old Holmes) & Holmes coming off a one year, nine month & three day ring lay-off) better than a '76 Norton (a guy who schooled Ali in their third match)? i think not.

Better's got nothing to do with it.

BarryWashington wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

BarryWashington wrote:are those fighters (spinks fighting 26 of his 32 fights at LHW and got W's over an 35 & 36 year old Holmes) & Holmes coming off a one year, nine month & three day ring lay-off) better than a '76 Norton (a guy who schooled Ali in their third match)? i think not.

Better's got nothing to do with it.

. . . what?

Those guys knew how to hold on and survive.

BarryWashington wrote:and norton didn't? i think people are really overrating iron mike here. norton knew how to fight, knew how to clinch. had a nice jab, nice left hook. this isn't marvis frazier or michael spinks we're talking about - it's ken norton.

Yes, Norton had some very good offensive skills, but he was hardly noted as a great ring strategist. He walked right towards Earnie Shavers and fought the only way he knew how. There isn't a single fight in his career that shows anything other than that from Norton. He would have had very little chance against any of the big punchers in history.

Oh yes and let's see. Peralta and Forte went 10 rounds with George Foreman, so I guess they were both better fighters than Joe Frazier.

Barry, I appreciate your thoughts. About the only place we disagree, is in the odds of Tyson getting to him early and ending it.

Reasoning I use in Tyson's favor is a bit intangible. I think Norton was able to be inimidated. (But not by Ali lol) Maybe Frazier scared him in the gym for all I know. But a great puncher seemed to get the better of him on several occasions. I think this may be more to do with mind than body in this case. If this was in a clinical vacuum....I would find myself very much agreeing with you.

However...Tyson brings that media hype of invinciblity with him at his prime, His quick ferocious power was undeniable. I think the "background noise" of Tyson the "media monster" brings just the sort of nervousness to Norton that he can not handle. That "break in concentration" would be enough.

For me it's never about just the physical skills, it's about the mental and emotional control. Of which (Outside of Ali) Norton rates only just above average. Not enough in my mind to weather the tirade of the first 4-5 rounds of this particular opponent.

I think Norton NEVER bought the hype of Ali, and he was programmed to believe Ali could never hurt him. And that fact served him well. But like Tarver, when it comes to genuine greatness, the term "one trick pony" comes to mind.

Norton would likely go out as quickly as Marvis Frazier. Kenny could never handle a puncher, especially one like Tyson. Easy nights work for Iron Mike.

BarryWashington wrote:and norton didn't? i think people are really overrating iron mike here. norton knew how to fight, knew how to clinch. had a nice jab, nice left hook. this isn't marvis frazier or michael spinks we're talking about - it's ken norton.

By the time Quarry fought Norton in 1975, he was a shot fighter. Heavy into cocaine at the time, he lost badly to Kenny & retired. However, in 1970, I was at the Main street Gym and watched Jerry KO Norton cold. That was back when Eddie Futch was working with Norton. Jerry had dropped him in the gym once before, with a hook to the body. After that Norton stopped working out at the Main Street Gym. Kenny was good against a powder puff hitter like Ali. But he was basicly an insecure head case, and trainer Bill slayton used to have to play mind games with Ken to get him to do whathe needed to do. I knew him pretty well, Kenny Norton. If a 180 pound Jose Luis Garcia can flatten Kenny, he would be quicl game for Tyson.

Rick, Just the guy I was hopin' would chime in on on this.


Roger that opinion regarding Norton Quarry, I think Norton savored that victory as much as the Ali win, just because he knew he had peaked whilst Jerry had cooled, and he wanted some payback for those days in the gym.

Sadly he got it.


Barry, I'm not sayin Tyson was mentally strong, but at his peak he himself hadn't yet discovered that he was mentally weak. He was full of media courage. And some opponents caved in on that alone. I do think Norton would have been affected as well. By Tyson's first through 3 round power, and the impending nervousness regarding the media's proclomation of his invincibility.

It's purely the styles, I could see Norton beating Holyfield, but only one result against Tyson. Norton was at his best coming forward, as of course was Tyson, but if they met head on I just don't see Norton standing up.

Bill Slayton was quoted in Norton's autobiography as saying that Norton tightened up against punchers and the results confirm this, the 3 biggest punchers he faced bombed him out in a total of four rounds.

Oh, I've GOT to get in on this.
Back in early '76, when I was a 14 year old kid that wasn't interested in any sports at all, I took a sudden interest in boxing after watching Ali's title defense against the infamous "Lion of Flanders" Jean Pierre Coopman on prime time television.
I wasn't all that impressed by Ali's performance that night to be honest, but it intrigued me enough to be sure to tune into Ali's next fight against Jimmy Young a month or so later. And, on the undercard I got my first look at Kenny Norton & for whatever reason, he became my favorite fighter.
While I kept watching all of Ali's defenses on TV, I REALLY couldn't wait for Norton's next fight. Which, wasn't until later on that summer vs Larry Middleton. And it was while I watched him batter Middleton into a 10th round TKO that I learned that he'd be fighting Ali in Yankee Stadium in September. Which piqued my interest enough to go out & buy all the boxing magazines on the stands with Norton on the cover.
When September arrived however, I was pretty much devastated to discover that the fight wasn't going to be television like all the others were. Instead, it were be on something called closed circuit TV. Which meant that I'd have to be taken 20 miles from home to downtown Buffalo on a school night & then pay $20 (!) for a ticket to watch it on a movie screen at The Aud. Which I pretty much knew would be out of the question, but I still asked.
And, of course, the answer was "no".
So, on fight night, I stayed up until 11:30 sitting through the local late news hoping to hear a result, but to no avail. The fight was still in progress...
So, after my mother sent me to bed, I had a VERY difficult time getting to sleep. But, at some point, I drifted off..
Only to spring out of bed at the sound of the alarm to run into the living room to watch GOOD MORNING AMERICA to get the results of the fight. I just KNEW that Norton had won & become champ!
So, as you can imagine I was thoroughly CRUSHED to learn that the controversial decision had gone to Ali.
Which made me both sad & angry.
ESPECIALLY once I finally got to actually see the fight a week or two later when it was rebroadcast & I got to witness the robbery for myself.
That, perhaps, could have turned other young lads off of the sport altogether, but for some reason, it just stimulated my passion for the sport even MORE. And, I began watching EVERY single heavyweight fight that was televised. And, I remained a fan of exclusively HEAVYWEIGHT boxing for another few months until one Saturday afternoon I happen to come across the pro debut of a young Olympic Gold Medalist named Ray Leonard. And then, by about the time I saw his second pro fight vs Willie Rodriguez, I'd become a fan of ALL boxing & ALL weight classes.
But Ken Norton, he remained my absolute favorite for quite a while.
He didn't have a whole lot of his career left at that point, but, I DID get to see plenty of classic Ken Norton moments like his less than a minute long blow out of unbeaten favorite Duane Bobick. Then there was his KO5 over contender Lorenzo Zanon in a tune up for his often overlooked classic with Jimmy Young. Which, of course, led to his absolute classic with Larry Holmes. After which, he rebounded with a nice KO of Randy Stephens.
Unfortunately, I believe those back to back wars of attrition with Young & Holmes pretty much depleted him & then the wheels came off with him getting whacked out in a round by Shavers, struggling to a draw with Scott Ledoux, a brief retirement, a split nod over unbeaten "Tex" Cobb, followed by his near execution at the hands of Cooney in one.

All of which, I've just used to set up my take on a Norton-Tyson match up.
Norton had a very stiff, accurate jab, that he could throw his underrated, quick hook off of. And, he was a terrific bodypuncher which he would use to lower the guard of his opponents, setting up his best shots, those debilitating overhand rights of his.
All of this, which at the bell, would be coming at Tyson behind that awkwardly effective Archie Moore-like, crossed armed defense/offense. Which, just MIGHT have befuddled Tyson.
Maybe, Kenny could do what Holyfield was able to & move Tyson back on his heels where he wasn't able to get his own offense together.
Possible...
But, unlikely.
Because, where Norton thought he had the perfect foil to Shaver's right hand grenade with his crossed armed defense, it left him open for Shevers' left hooks. Which turned out to be pretty bad ass too unfortunately. And, Tyson's hooks were MUCH faster & more powerful than Earnie's. So...
Tyson by KO. Probably in one.

That was an interesting post, even if I didn't agree with all of your opnions.
Most imprtantly the opinion that Tyson would have ko's Norton in one round. It is a posssiblity, but not a probability.
First of all, too much is based on the Shavers fight. That was the 1979 version of Norton, not the 1976 version. Kenny was 35 and coming off a 15-round battle with Holmes by then. He was a much different (and much better) fighter from about 1973-1978, than he was afterwards.

You also have to look at what Tyson did. In the previous 9 fighters before he fought Spinks, he never stopped anyone in the first round. Tyson was a quite a force and certainly could have stopped Norton early. However, Norton did have a good chin and may have weathered the storm if he got hurt late in a round. Most likley, Norton's style would have caused Tyson some problems early and prevented him from landing the haymakers early. Eventually, he probably would have gotton to Norton and stopped him in the middle rounds.

Tyson probably would have won, but it's possible that Norton pull off a decison and you would also have to give him a remote puncher's chance.

The Great John L wrote:

BarryWashington wrote:and norton didn't? i think people are really overrating iron mike here. norton knew how to fight, knew how to clinch. had a nice jab, nice left hook. this isn't marvis frazier or michael spinks we're talking about - it's ken norton.

Yes, Norton had some very good offensive skills, but he was hardly noted as a great ring strategist. He walked right towards Earnie Shavers and fought the only way he knew how. There isn't a single fight in his career that shows anything other than that from Norton. He would have had very little chance against any of the big punchers in history.

Oh yes and let's see. Peralta and Forte went 10 rounds with George Foreman, so I guess they were both better fighters than Joe Frazier.

Not true. Norton could stay on the outside and jab/use distance. He was doing pretty well vs Foreman with that strategy until George caught him, and he did is vs Quarry. He certainly COULD have used his reach to jab Shavers from the outside, but he decided to try to smother Shavers power and force Earnie to tire himself out, which was a mistake.

I favor Tyson here, but a Norton surprise performance is possible, and I guess Kirkman, Garcia (rematch), Quarry, O'Halloran etc. couldn't punch? Norton took clean flush shots from all those guys and never went down, so this whole "he could never last with a puncher" BS is just that . . .BS.

BarryWashington wrote:Tillis took him the full 10.
Green took him the full 10.
Ribalta made it to 10.
Smith took him the full 12.
Thomas made it to 6.
Tucker took him the full 12.
Biggs made it to 7.

i get that we're talking about '88 tyson (who took out Spinks in 1, Tubbs in 2 & Holmes in 4), but break that down. are those fighters (spinks fighting 26 of his 32 fights at LHW and got W's over an 35 & 36 year old Holmes) & Holmes coming off a one year, nine month & three day ring lay-off) better than a '76 Norton (a guy who schooled Ali in their third match)? i think not.

yes, it's possible that tyson takes him out early but to act like it's such a sure thing doesn't add up. as i stated earlier : foreman & shavers were much longer of reach, were taller in height and were much harder one-shot punchers than Iron Mike was. Mike has the speed factor over them this is true but i just can't see how it's an automatic early rounds KO for Mike (especially since Norton was over-the-hill when he lost to Shavers).

to me there's much more to say Norton takes him the distance then gets taken out early and i think it would be a very close fight if taken the distance.

great post

Early win for Tyson. Norton was a relatively slow starter and I couldn't see Norton taking Tysons' punches for too long. It's pointless comparing how other great fighters faired against Norton (Ali, Holmes) as they are the complete opposite in style and power than Tyson, it's like comparing chalk and cheese.

Easy KO win for Tyson. KO 1.

Controversial wrote:Early win for Tyson. Norton was a relatively slow starter and I couldn't see Norton taking Tysons' punches for too long. It's pointless comparing how other great fighters faired against Norton (Ali, Holmes) as they are the complete opposite in style and power than Tyson, it's like comparing chalk and cheese.

That is a fair point about Tyson having more power and a much different style than Holmes and Ali. (Though I do think these fights show that Norton had some good attributes and had to had at least a decent chin.)
However, it's not like Tyson blew everyone out in the first round or even early.

Barry Washington had posted this earlier in the thread:
Tillis took him the full 10.
Green took him the full 10.
Ribalta made it to 10.
Smith took him the full 12.
Thomas made it to 6.
Tucker took him the full 12.
Biggs made it to 7.

Some of these were when Tyson was coming up and maybe the result would have been a lot different later on. Maybe not so much.

The point is, it's not a no-brainer by any stretch of the imagination that Norton is going to get blown out right away.

Ambling Alp wrote:
That is a fair point about . Tyson having more power and a much different style than Holmes and Ali.
However, it's not like Tyson blew everyone out in the first round or even early.

Barry Washington had posted this earlier in the thread:
Tillis took him the full 10.
Green took him the full 10.
Ribalta made it to 10.
Smith took him the full 12.
Thomas made it to 6.
Tucker took him the full 12.
Biggs made it to 7.

Some of these were when Tyson was coming up and maybe the result would have been a lot different later on. Maybe not so much.

The point is, it's not a no-brainer by any stretch of the imagination that Norton is going to get blown out right away.

Styles make fights though. The above contains some very durable fighters, plus a few Tyson fought on the defensive from the opening bell. Norton was a slow starter, a bit like Floyd Patterson he was floored several times in the first few rounds in fights and normally come unstuck against big punchers. Tyson did tend to run out of ideas after a few rounds in fights when opponents didn't fall over but I just can't see Norton lasting more than 3.

Ken Norton simply could not match up well with big punchers and was stopped in short order by George Foreman, Earnie Shavers and Gerry Cooney. As a result, I believe that Mike Tyson, Joe Frazier and Ron Lyle would have knocked out Norton in an early round if each fighter was at his peak.

Believe it or not, I feel that Norton was a better fighter than Shavers or Lyle. To evaluate fighters, I believe that you have to find how they fared against a variety of other top fighters, not simply just one. Just because Muhammad Ali had a tough time with Norton in three fights doesn't mean that I think that Norton comes close to being as good as Ali.

- Chuck Johnston

Yes Norton got kayoed by Foreman,Shavers,and Cooney. However, you have to look at the circumstances.
He was 35 when he fought Shavers. He may not have been shot, but he was clearly past his best.
He was 37 when he fought Cooney. I don't see how you can count that fight at all.

So you are just left with Foreman. Frazier got stopped by foreman in two rounds as well. You can't totally dismiss Norton because of that.

The Norton from about the 1st Ali fight to the Holmes fight is a totally different fighter and would have a much better chance against Tyson; though I would still pick Tyson to win the fight.

If you are not going to consider the circumstances, then you have factor in Tyson's fight with Kevin McBride.