BoxRec

Andre Ward is the current incumbent of the dubious, yet venerable title of the "Best flagrant professional "accidental" follow-through"; Wilfredo Gomez surely the all-time go-to guy, for brio, for technical flair, for doing it six inches from the referee & getting away with it; Fritzie Zivic perfected it in days of yore; Rocky Marciano did it, but it looked ugly & obvious; as did Tyson's; lanky Mexicans seem to learn it in the gym-time when their shorter brethren are practicing left hook to the liver/short left uppercut to the chin combinations (see: Oscar Larios, Marcos Villasana, Antonio Margarito, Antonio DeMarco...). Miguel Cotto used to be quite good at it. Bernard Hopkins has a degree in doing it. I'm sure Michael Katsidis is actually trying it every single time he throws the right hand, but unfortunately no-one's shown him how to do it properly, so every time he throws a right cross it just looks like he should be in the Paralympics. Harry Greb could probably do it with just his neck, but as no-one alive has seen him do it (yet they'll be able to cite a P.T. Barnum-esque carnival barker's tirade disguised as a newspaper report which claims he had beautifully-delivered elbows) we'll just acknowledge him as the all-time master of everything & the ultimate answer to any boxing related question. & now we can move on...

It's fvcking nasty, when it's done right; but few acknowledge it. Not commentators (& when they do it's with the equivalent of Lampley's smarmy pudendum schoolboy smirk/chuckle combo); even referees don't seem to mind that much. Before you leap up & defend the integrity of our sport & take me to task for saying it: how often do you see points taken for it, compared to disqualifications for (relatively) innocuous low blows? I'm not talking here about a flying arm-bar: no, I'm talking about those times when the gloved bit of your arm misses the target, so to punish your opponent for his temerity you follow-through the motion (normally with far more snap than the actual punch would've landed with, which makes me think some people must practice it) with little regard for sticky-out bits of the other bloke's face. To be done right there must be at least a degree of deniability: "Did I? But ref, I was just looping my arm out in an arc like the severed tentacle of a giant squid to better punch my opponent! It's his fault for sticking his eye socket into me like that!"


So, with that in mind, what are your favourite "accidental" elbow shots? The most horrific? Who have I missed that could sling it in there? Am I right to accord it special attention?

There is a reason George McFadden's nickname was "Elbows."

Datsue wrote:Andre Ward is the current incumbent of the dubious, yet venerable title of the "Best flagrant professional "accidental" follow-through"; Wilfredo Gomez surely the all-time go-to guy, for brio, for technical flair, for doing it six inches from the referee & getting away with it; Fritzie Zivic perfected it in days of yore; Rocky Marciano did it, but it looked ugly & obvious; as did Tyson's; lanky Mexicans seem to learn it in the gym-time when their shorter brethren are practicing left hook to the liver/short left uppercut to the chin combinations (see: Oscar Larios, Marcos Villasana, Antonio Margarito, Antonio DeMarco...). Miguel Cotto used to be quite good at it. Bernard Hopkins has a degree in doing it. I'm sure Michael Katsidis is actually trying it every single time he throws the right hand, but unfortunately no-one's shown him how to do it properly, so every time he throws a right cross it just looks like he should be in the Paralympics. Harry Greb could probably do it with just his neck, but as no-one alive has seen him do it (yet they'll be able to cite a P.T. Barnum-esque carnival barker's tirade disguised as a newspaper report which claims he had beautifully-delivered elbows) we'll just acknowledge him as the all-time master of everything & the ultimate answer to any boxing related question. & now we can move on...

It's fvcking nasty, when it's done right; but few acknowledge it. Not commentators (& when they do it's with the equivalent of Lampley's smarmy pudendum schoolboy smirk/chuckle combo); even referees don't seem to mind that much. Before you leap up & defend the integrity of our sport & take me to task for saying it: how often do you see points taken for it, compared to disqualifications for (relatively) innocuous low blows? I'm not talking here about a flying arm-bar: no, I'm talking about those times when the gloved bit of your arm misses the target, so to punish your opponent for his temerity you follow-through the motion (normally with far more snap than the actual punch would've landed with, which makes me think some people must practice it) with little regard for sticky-out bits of the other bloke's face. To be done right there must be at least a degree of deniability: "Did I? But ref, I was just looping my arm out in an arc like the severed tentacle of a giant squid to better punch my opponent! It's his fault for sticking his eye socket into me like that!"


So, with that in mind, what are your favourite "accidental" elbow shots? The most horrific? Who have I missed that could sling it in there? Am I right to accord it special attention?

doubtless Pedrosa managed the odd elbow to the throat noone else comes to mind, bazooka the most flagrant i have seen

I can't think beyond Marciano when thinking of elbows and forearm follow-throughs.

Counter-puncher wrote:

Datsue wrote:Andre Ward is the current incumbent of the dubious, yet venerable title of the "Best flagrant professional "accidental" follow-through"; Wilfredo Gomez surely the all-time go-to guy, for brio, for technical flair, for doing it six inches from the referee & getting away with it; Fritzie Zivic perfected it in days of yore; Rocky Marciano did it, but it looked ugly & obvious; as did Tyson's; lanky Mexicans seem to learn it in the gym-time when their shorter brethren are practicing left hook to the liver/short left uppercut to the chin combinations (see: Oscar Larios, Marcos Villasana, Antonio Margarito, Antonio DeMarco...). Miguel Cotto used to be quite good at it. Bernard Hopkins has a degree in doing it. I'm sure Michael Katsidis is actually trying it every single time he throws the right hand, but unfortunately no-one's shown him how to do it properly, so every time he throws a right cross it just looks like he should be in the Paralympics. Harry Greb could probably do it with just his neck, but as no-one alive has seen him do it (yet they'll be able to cite a P.T. Barnum-esque carnival barker's tirade disguised as a newspaper report which claims he had beautifully-delivered elbows) we'll just acknowledge him as the all-time master of everything & the ultimate answer to any boxing related question. & now we can move on...

It's fvcking nasty, when it's done right; but few acknowledge it. Not commentators (& when they do it's with the equivalent of Lampley's smarmy pudendum schoolboy smirk/chuckle combo); even referees don't seem to mind that much. Before you leap up & defend the integrity of our sport & take me to task for saying it: how often do you see points taken for it, compared to disqualifications for (relatively) innocuous low blows? I'm not talking here about a flying arm-bar: no, I'm talking about those times when the gloved bit of your arm misses the target, so to punish your opponent for his temerity you follow-through the motion (normally with far more snap than the actual punch would've landed with, which makes me think some people must practice it) with little regard for sticky-out bits of the other bloke's face. To be done right there must be at least a degree of deniability: "Did I? But ref, I was just looping my arm out in an arc like the severed tentacle of a giant squid to better punch my opponent! It's his fault for sticking his eye socket into me like that!"


So, with that in mind, what are your favourite "accidental" elbow shots? The most horrific? Who have I missed that could sling it in there? Am I right to accord it special attention?

doubtless Pedrosa managed the odd elbow to the throat noone else comes to mind, bazooka the most flagrant i have seen

Pedroza! How could I have forgot him? Now there was a stylish one, as you said, his always seemed to land square in the throat. Takes a bit of timing & skill that does...

My memory is cloudy: was Laporte any cop at it? I remember him being a nasty little fecker, but can't remember his favoured rules breach...

orbtastic wrote:I can't think beyond Marciano when thinking of elbows and forearm follow-throughs.

Yeah, he was brutishly effective at it & like his unbeaten record, it tends to colour all discussion. But I still maintain that though successful with it, his lack of flair & grace should count against him (though when he did it, it kinda looked like he could smash straight through a wall with it).

I've seen Muay Thai fighters throw elbows with less force behind them than the Rock.

EDIT: How could I forget Floyd Mayweather? Man, there's that video somewhere on Youtube where they show how many times he did it versus Hatton (no, before you start, I don't think Hatton would've beaten him sans Floyd's elbows. But to deny the nasty little fecker throws it about as often as he does right-hand counters is churlish at best, I feel). A true master of the nasty sideswipe, & like Hopkins & Ward he's very good at blind-siding the ref or turning his body so that when he does it the official can't see properly.

I should admit at this juncture that just one of the many many things that prevented me from being a world-class boxer (apart from skill, physical aptitude, mental fortitude & the amount of time I devoted to banging girls & getting wankered) was my lack of the appropriate temperament, because were I facing Floyd & undergoing the indignity of not only being outboxed & bamboozled but also bullied by the lippy pudendum, I'd load up the biggest, most powerful nut-shot I could manage, & put his balls up under his kidneys for him.

But I digress.

Not the one I was thinking of, because it highlights Floyd's equally honed use of the elbow-in-the-clinch, but he catches Ricky & Bruseles & Corley with some peaches in here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV_Zal_uEV4

There's a great one somewhere where he lands a double elbow (off the same hand! Such combinations haven't been seen for years!) on Mosley, first one as Mosley comes in at him, then, when Mosley's just been elbowed in the face & is kind of blinking in astonishment & looking at the ref, Floyd twats him with it again! Shows great dedication to the task, that.

if I'm being hyper-critical, I'm not sure floyd elbows people hard enough to belong on this thread. though he's very acurate and consistent, Combu-bow statistics telling us he lands with well over half the elbows he throws.

Counter-puncher wrote:if I'm being hyper-critical, I'm not sure floyd elbows people hard enough to belong on this thread. though he's very acurate and consistent, Combu-bow statistics telling us he lands with well over half the elbows he throws.

Good point. Perhaps he suffers not only from brittle hands, but from brittle elbows as well, & therefore "pulls" them slightly just before contact?

Just imagine how unbeatable he'd be if he could put full force on them!

......to be fair it should be said that mfadden's use of his elbows was mostly for defense....he held them up close to his face and blocked with them. my grandfather had seen him fight, and contemporary writers often described his style this way. this is not to say that they also did a more-than-occasional clout to his opponents face.

..as for marciano, he was so determined he could...and did....sometimes do it after the bell had rung.

I wonder what TAD meant when he wrote: “McFadden should use four gloves in the ring. One on each fist and one on each elbow.”

.....my grandfather used to demonstrate mcfadden's stance and style. i repeat, it was mostly for defense, but he of course had to punch from it.....and an elbow would sometimes be a follow through from that motion. yeah, he was rough and and not dainty but the stance was primarily to block punches, mostly hooks and round house rights that came from the outside, which is how i mostly read about it and saw sketches drawn by artists in the old newspaper clippings.

TAD was an entertaining writer as well as a journalist and his comment combined both of those traits.

What about Tito?

like freddie roach said when throwing a good left hook if the punch misses the elbow should land

Mike Spinks was pretty good at it.

Broner has a great time with it at the weekend...well almost...

You're forgetting Floyd Mayweather's notoriously subtle elbows.

A lot of guys sneak in the elbows with their shots. Recently Michael Katsidis definitely did it in a way that always seemed pretty obvious to me. Casamayor would do it too, but Casamayor would sneak in anything and everything he could get away with.

Yah, Broner's certainly in contention in today's debased, fallen boxing world, but--o tempora! O mores!--he hasn't just nicked Floyd's persona wholesale, he's also nicked the wussy "tickling with the elbow" stuff as well.

As Counter-Puncher alluded to above, this style of elbowing is a bit pantywaist when compared to true titans of the elbow-smash.

Spinks is definitely a consideration. Floyd & Katsidis were dealt with above, if someone can decipher my tortured prose.

But Casamayor! There's a fvcking name to conjure with! As you said, it wasn't a speciality for him, as any part of his body he could get in contact with sensitive areas of his opponent was de rigeur, but he was certainly a solid exponent of the art.

IKSRTFO wrote:You're forgetting Floyd Mayweather's notoriously subtle elbows.

He's handy with his forearms too.

Duran.