BoxRec

I saw when larry met Muhammed on espn the other day than reviewed the holmes and berbick fiascos...my belief has always been that the Ali who fought Shavers in 77 was the last semblance of the 70s Ali, and that the 78 spinks rematch version was still a far better version than the parkinsons ravaged, drug laden Ali who lost to Holmes and Berbick.

But the question id like to ask is how many of you feel the 78 version was also just as shot as the ali who fought holmes......the only difference being Holmes made him look that much worse as he was that much better than Spinks?

He was miles worse when he fought Holmes. If that Ali faced the Spinks from the rematch, Leon would have ravaged him.

He was lulled into a real mess based on a bill of goods from his Doctor with some drug and nutrition nonsense. Someone sold him a real bill of goods that returned his body to bit of a better looking state, but increased the demise of his neuro system. Response time that was failing anyway, was gutted by the time of the Holmes fight.

Pretty obvious from his performance.....about all he still had was his remarkable ability to absorb.

Rating his performances in those four fights:

1. Spinks II (1978)
2. Berbick (1981)
3. Spinks I (1978)
4. Holmes (1980)

He was obviously way past it by 1978. He had been declining since the Frazier fight in 1975.

In the 2nd Spinks fight he still had a bit left. It was the best of those four.
He had absolutley nothing in the Holmes fight. without a doubt his worst.
The only thing to consider is if he looked better in the Berbick fight than the first Spinks fight. He just showed flashes here and there in both.

Ali from late '76, was ripe for the taking. How he survived Shavers and won a decision, regardless if it was a gift or not, over Jimmy Young still defies all my logic. What alot of people forget is that after the Spinks farces, that Ali's people tried with great effort to get Ali to fight a pro debuter in a heavyweight title fight; the man had knocked Ali out in the amateurs but never became a pro. When that fight didn't materialise, Ali retired rather than face his mandatory (WBA #1 contender) Gerrie Coetzee. One can argue that Ali still 'had it' even though I don't think he did, as I've pointed out to the Alzado exhibition countless times. Sure they clowned around a bit, but at times it got serious and Ali couldn't hurt Alzado let alone escape from Alzado's slow, ponderous punches and movements. I think had Ali come back and fought Tate or Weaver or Coetzee, he would have been destroyed because it was three guys who would have been looking to make a name for themselves and try their hardest to knock him out, and I think they would have successfully pulled it off. They wouldnt have been as nice as Holmes was. Throw in the drugs Ali took to shed all the weight off (that whole glandular conditioning thing was bullshit, Ali was hog fat and wanted to get into shape, his body wasnt cooperating with him anymore), he is very lucky Holmes' kidney shots didnt kill him. Fast forward to the Berbick fight, Ali does it naturally and fairs much better than he did against Holmes; still he was all gone as a fighter. Joe Frazier in his comeback with Jumbo Cummings looked far and away more better than Ali did. Were they the same version? I dont think so, Ali was already passed it as a fighter following Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner and Joe Frazier for the last time. The Holmes fight was a badly dehydrated Ali who was well passed it, and the Berbick fight was still the same guy except he was fatter this time cus he didnt use drugs to get into shape.

have to agree with everything ive read here.

mugabi wrote:have to agree with everything ive read here.

x2

I wouldn't agree that Ali was better against berbick than he was in the first Spinks fight. In fact, you couldn't possibly come up with anything that I'd disagree with more adamantly. No way Berbick/Ali goes 15 rounds at that pace. Berbick was the worst of the four, or tied with Holmes.

I think knocking Ali out even then would have been a chore. Probably the only thing I disagree with in these statements. I don't think Larry was pulling many punches, despite his claims to the contrary. Larry was not above accepting that feather in his hat, and it would have come his way, had Ali continued.

BoxBuzz wrote:I think knocking Ali out even then would have been a chore. Probably the only thing I disagree with in these statements. I don't think Larry was pulling many punches, despite his claims to the contrary. Larry was not above accepting that feather in his hat, and it would have come his way, had Ali continued.

Spinks was throwing a ridiculous amount of punches. The useless Ali that fought Trevor would have been destined to finish that fight in his corner.

BoxBuzz wrote:I think knocking Ali out even then would have been a chore. Probably the only thing I disagree with in these statements. I don't think Larry was pulling many punches, despite his claims to the contrary. Larry was not above accepting that feather in his hat, and it would have come his way, had Ali continued.

Spinks demonstrated, though, he was not a true championship caliber fighter. He was destroyed in one round by Coetzee and easily tore apart by Holmes in three rounds. People forget that despite gold medal, this is the same guy who fought a hard fight with Scott LeDoux and probably didn't earn that decision. A guy like Coetzee, who probably had the best over hand right of the late 70s and early 80s, or even a behemoth like John Tate, or a muscled up adonis like Weaver, were genuine punchers and legit fighters; they would have hurt Ali badly and would have more than likely kayoed him had he fought them.

BoxBuzz wrote:I think knocking Ali out even then would have been a chore. Probably the only thing I disagree with in these statements. I don't think Larry was pulling many punches, despite his claims to the contrary. Larry was not above accepting that feather in his hat, and it would have come his way, had Ali continued.

Holmes from round one til rounds 9-10, was throwing possibly 70-80% at best. Compare the footage to all his other fights, he was sparring/toying with Ali. It wasnt until the referee told Holmes to continue fighting when Larry asked him to stop the fight, did Larry start unloading serious bombs. Had he fought like that from round one onwards, Ali probably would have died cus he had no quit in him, and his kidneys were in a terrible state.

Legacy is irrelevant, Leon beat the shit out of Ali and that would have been really ugly against Ali 4 years older and in severely worse condition. I haven't watched it in a while, but I'll bet Leon was tossing upwards of 100 punches a round.

You cant exactly not judge fighters without their legacy. However Ali got took to school by a kid with relatively no credentials; and in the rematch Ali won by the narrowest of margins because Spinks hardly did anything, one of the most dull and boring fights of all time. IF ONLY Ali had followed the script, and fought Norton after the Bobick fight, we probably wouldnt be talking Ali up so much; maybe. Ali of late '76-1980 was one of the sorriest fighters of all time. Like I said, he knew he had nothing left even before Spinks, which is why he hoped against hope that Spinks could get ranked, and hoped against hope that following his victory over him in a rematch that he could fight a pro debuter in 1979, but it didnt happen. The Holmes fight, was all about the money, wasnt about legacy regardless of what people want to con themselves into believing. According to Holmes, he could have beaten Ali as early as 1975 (the same time he was let go from the Ali camp) because Ali could do nothing with him any more. Which goes to show you something, cus Holmes has always been blunt and not far off the mark of truth. Ali was essentially gone following Zaire, and carefully selected fights kept him on the pedestal.

HomicideHenry wrote:You cant exactly not judge fighters without their legacy. However Ali got took to school by a kid with relatively no credentials; and in the rematch Ali won by the narrowest of margins because Spinks hardly did anything, one of the most dull and boring fights of all time. IF ONLY Ali had followed the script, and fought Norton after the Bobick fight, we probably wouldnt be talking Ali up so much; maybe. Ali of late '76-1980 was one of the sorriest fighters of all time. Like I said, he knew he had nothing left even before Spinks, which is why he hoped against hope that Spinks could get ranked, and hoped against hope that following his victory over him in a rematch that he could fight a pro debuter in 1979, but it didnt happen. The Holmes fight, was all about the money, wasnt about legacy regardless of what people want to con themselves into believing. According to Holmes, he could have beaten Ali as early as 1975 (the same time he was let go from the Ali camp) because Ali could do nothing with him any more. Which goes to show you something, cus Holmes has always been blunt and not far off the mark of truth. Ali was essentially gone following Zaire, and carefully selected fights kept him on the pedestal.

Holmes claims he could've beaten Ali in 75. So what? A virtually gone Ali wouldn't have won Frazier III.

Thats cus people elevate Ali/Frazier III to mythical proportions, when in truth it was two old washed up guys. Joe was legally blind in both eyes and had arthritis up and down his back. Ali hadnt shown foot work since the Wepner fight and was relying on the rope a dope more and more and was starting to slow and slur. Was it a great fight, yes. A truly bloody and dangerous fight. But both guys were gone.

HomicideHenry wrote:Thats cus people elevate Ali/Frazier III to mythical proportions, when in truth it was two old washed up guys. Joe was legally blind in both eyes and had arthritis up and down his back. Ali hadnt shown foot work since the Wepner fight and was relying on the rope a dope more and more and was starting to slow and slur. Was it a great fight, yes. A truly bloody and dangerous fight. But both guys were gone.

Frazier was not legally blind in both eyes--at least not going in. Neither was "washed up," either. Not yet. They basically finished each other.

Thats what people want you to believe. Joe was wearing contacts as early as the second Foreman fight. His vision was 20/100 and 20/110 in his eyes going into the last Ali fight. Its obvious that following Zaire Ali was never the same either; sure he could dance around Wepner cus Chuck despite his #8 ranking was a bum, but he was losing on the cards to Lyle until that premature stoppage. He didnt look good against Bugner either. Both guys were passed their primes, and that was it. It looked even, cus both were in an even state of condition. Both we passed it, therefore it looked even.

HomicideHenry wrote:Thats what people want you to believe. Joe was wearing contacts as early as the second Foreman fight. His vision was 20/100 and 20/110 in his eyes going into the last Ali fight. Its obvious that following Zaire Ali was never the same either; sure he could dance around Wepner cus Chuck despite his #8 ranking was a bum, but he was losing on the cards to Lyle until that premature stoppage. He didnt look good against Bugner either. Both guys were passed their primes, and that was it. It looked even, cus both were in an even state of condition. Both we passed it, therefore it looked even.

Neither was "washed up," and who provided those vision figures?
BTW, the second Foreman fight was after Ali III.

HomicideHenry wrote:You cant exactly not judge fighters without their legacy. However Ali got took to school by a kid with relatively no credentials; and in the rematch Ali won by the narrowest of margins because Spinks hardly did anything, one of the most dull and boring fights of all time. IF ONLY Ali had followed the script, and fought Norton after the Bobick fight, we probably wouldnt be talking Ali up so much; maybe. Ali of late '76-1980 was one of the sorriest fighters of all time. Like I said, he knew he had nothing left even before Spinks, which is why he hoped against hope that Spinks could get ranked, and hoped against hope that following his victory over him in a rematch that he could fight a pro debuter in 1979, but it didnt happen. The Holmes fight, was all about the money, wasnt about legacy regardless of what people want to con themselves into believing. According to Holmes, he could have beaten Ali as early as 1975 (the same time he was let go from the Ali camp) because Ali could do nothing with him any more. Which goes to show you something, cus Holmes has always been blunt and not far off the mark of truth. Ali was essentially gone following Zaire, and carefully selected fights kept him on the pedestal.

LOL, what in the world are you talking about? The losses to Spinks & Berbick have NOTHING to do with Ali's legacy. The rematch wasn't close either, Ali easily won 11 rounds.

HomicideHenry wrote:Thats cus people elevate Ali/Frazier III to mythical proportions, when in truth it was two old washed up guys. Joe was legally blind in both eyes and had arthritis up and down his back. Ali hadnt shown foot work since the Wepner fight and was relying on the rope a dope more and more and was starting to slow and slur. Was it a great fight, yes. A truly bloody and dangerous fight. But both guys were gone.

Hank this is gobbledeegook. They were either gone, or this was a great fight. Can't have it both ways. Though I know you will protest and attempt to explain....I urge you not to...lol.

If you continue with this line of reasoning you NEED to run for congress.

BoxBuzz wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Thats cus people elevate Ali/Frazier III to mythical proportions, when in truth it was two old washed up guys. Joe was legally blind in both eyes and had arthritis up and down his back. Ali hadnt shown foot work since the Wepner fight and was relying on the rope a dope more and more and was starting to slow and slur. Was it a great fight, yes. A truly bloody and dangerous fight. But both guys were gone.

Hank this is gobbledeegook. They were either gone, or this was a great fight. Can't have it both ways. Though I know you will protest and attempt to explain....I urge you not to...lol.

If you continue with this line of reasoning you NEED to run for congress.

Fighters who are "washed up" don't fight like those two did.

I actually had the Ali-Berbick fight a close one. I imagined it wasnt Ali in there, but any other fighter and scored the fight on its merits. In that case it was a narrow berbick win or draw. Its only as it was the "greatest" the sad, diseased, corpse of the "greatest" that Ali looking like death warmed up makes us just think of it as a blastout

@homicidehenry.
As much as I have enjoyed your posts on this topic Id probably slightly disagree with Holmes remarks that he could have taken Ali in 75. The latter day Holmes has often revised history like his ridiculous remarks that Lennox Lewis circa 95-98 was afraid to fight him . Larry took Lennoxs respect as a sign he was afraid.

I think the Ali of 1975/77 (norton 3,Frazier 3, Shavers) would have still been far too much for the Holmes of 75 , hell i think the 78 Holmes loses to that version of Ali.

Holmes barely got by Norton in 78 and Shavers almost put him out.....Spinks was more or less a crack addict after the Ali fights

I wouldnt read too much into the Wepner fight. Ali came in clowning, out of shape, I would doubt he trained properly more than a week. He treated it like a public sparring,humiliation exercise.