BoxRec

I know it sounds like an insanely ridiculous question considering Ali's career is defined by his speed when in his prime, but there may just be some room for debate on this. Ali was 215 pounds at his peak, and there were champions before him who weighed much less. Nat Fleischer of RING magazine in the late 1960's said that there was no man he could name in the last 50 years who compared to Ali in speed, which puts the only contender to the claim as being Jim Corbett. Corbett was a light heavyweight by all accounts, and there is film of him with Gene Tunney when Corbett was 59 years old and was remarkably fast even then. Could there also be an argument that Floyd Patterson, himself a middleweight turn light heavyweight turn heavyweight had faster hands than Muhammad Ali?

floyd mabye had faster hands,but all round footwork,reflexes etc,i dont think anyone,with the possible exeption of jack johnston comes close to ali

semtexreilly wrote:floyd mabye had faster hands,but all round footwork,reflexes etc,i dont think anyone,with the possible exeption of jack johnston comes close to ali

Are you serious? JACK JOHNSON? Where's the proof? Cus the films sure as heck don't support that!

just going by what ive read about him mate,ali clear winner for me,i reckon he had the fastest hands as well

It's rare that you see Ali out-jabbed, but Foster managed just that in their fight. Granted, Bob was no legit heavyweight but his jab was certainly faster.

I think Patterson is possibly in with the best shout of being "quicker", although obviously Ali is the complete package and the more fluid boxer.

HomicideHenry wrote:I know it sounds like an insanely ridiculous question considering Ali's career is defined by his speed when in his prime, but there may just be some room for debate on this. Ali was 215 pounds at his peak, and there were champions before him who weighed much less. Nat Fleischer of RING magazine in the late 1960's said that there was no man he could name in the last 50 years who compared to Ali in speed, which puts the only contender to the claim as being Jim Corbett. Corbett was a light heavyweight by all accounts, and there is film of him with Gene Tunney when Corbett was 59 years old and was remarkably fast even then. Could there also be an argument that Floyd Patterson, himself a middleweight turn light heavyweight turn heavyweight had faster hands than Muhammad Ali?

I saw a BBC video on olympic boxers which visited flloyd patterson in 1996 and he was training on the heavy bag and i swear his hand speed was remarkably quick even than.

When speaking of combination hand and foot speed Ali is the clear #1. Even footspeed he'd be #1 along with perhaps Corbett.

Handspeed there are many in the same playing field. Patterson was lightening fast with his two-fisted inside combinations but he needed his feet set to throw them. Johnson had amazing overall reflexes and fast hands. Louis and Tyson for punchers could fire off extremely fast combinations with serious power. I'd even throw in Dokes in terms of pure handspeed.

dempseyfire wrote:When speaking of combination hand and foot speed Ali is the clear #1. Even footspeed he'd be #1 along with perhaps Corbett.
Handspeed there are many in the same playing field. Patterson was lightening fast with his two-fisted inside combinations but he needed his feet set to throw them. Johnson had amazing overall reflexes and fast hands. Louis and Tyson for punchers could fire off extremely fast combinations with serious power. I'd even throw in Dokes in terms of pure handspeed.

Elaborate on that sentence. For me, I think Corbett was faster than Ali overall. He was only 177 pounds, and footage seems to support this. He had to be, in that era there were heavies fighting middleweights and welterweights and there wasnt that much of a size difference. I've met Ali fanatics who thought Ali was as fast as a bantamweight, but this is far from the truth. In terms of work rate Ali and Marciano are about the only men I knew as heavyweights who averaged 80-100 punches a round as far as film evidence shows. Corbett has little film to go by, but as stated before, the footage of him and Tunney at age 59 shows Corbett was still quite quick, even though it was a sparring demonstration. I could scarcely imagine Corbett at his peak powers. His ring generalship had to be of been astonishing.

dempseyfire wrote:When speaking of combination hand and foot speed Ali is the clear #1. Even footspeed he'd be #1 along with perhaps Corbett.

Handspeed there are many in the same playing field. Patterson was lightening fast with his two-fisted inside combinations but he needed his feet set to throw them. Johnson had amazing overall reflexes and fast hands. Louis and Tyson for punchers could fire off extremely fast combinations with serious power. I'd even throw in Dokes in terms of pure handspeed.

I agree, I do think Patterson hands may well have been as fast. But combine reaction time, handspeed, footspeed, and overall maneuverability including flexiblity and Ali aces this overall category. Add a "pound for pound" aspect, and it becomes even more pronounced within the HW division.

Louis had the biggest discrepancy between hand and foot speed… His hands were lightning. He probably could have moved his feet quickly but rarely did.

Jersey Joe had good speed.

Patterson had quick hands... And Ezzard Charles & Archie Moore were both quick for Heavyweights. Tunney was no slouch either.

Ezzard wrote:Louis had the biggest discrepancy between hand and foot speed… His hands were lightning. He probably could have moved his feet quickly but rarely did.

Jersey Joe had good speed.

Louis could shift his feet quickly if needed. He showed this more in his earlier fights (see the Max Baer fight). But his style was more grounded to ensure maximum power on his punches.

Ezzard Charles had extremely fast hands, particularly in his younger years, but since he lacked a flashy style I think he gets overlooked as he often didn't employ his speed until at opportune times. Ezzard would throw very pedestrian looking jabs and hooks to the body, clinch, repeat . . and almost lull his opponent to sleep. Then out of nowhere . . bam bam BAM. Lightning shots.

HomicideHenry: You're correct in noting that Gentleman Jim may have been faster than Ali . . it's pretty much impossible to judge from the limited film we have. Corbett does impress in that later film with Tunney. Also, there are some clips of Johnson shadow-boxing in some really bad 1930s movie I've seen, and even in that advanced age one can tell the guy had amazing reflexes and speed. But since we don't have quality real-time footage of both Corbett and Johnson in their fighting days, I think we can only say that they were among the best.

I will say however, that simply weighing less doesn't equate to being quicker (Andre Ward would have a definite speed advantage over Brandon Rios) and I think Ali's speed could've matched up with the middleweights of his day as well (especially if we're talking about Monzon!!)

I think Ali-prime was the fastest, but Dokes, Patterson, Louis, and even Page could be in the running.

This topic had been brought up many times beofre, but whatever.
Handspeed- Ali was certainly the fastest heavyweight when he was in his mid-20's. Second would probably be between Patterson and Tyson. The film quality that exists of Corbett, is not great. However, he certainly handspeed doesn't seem exceptionally fast; certainly not as fast as Ali. However, this Ali so anything goes with some people.

Tony Tubbs was another guy who had very good handspeed. Holyfield in his prime had good handspeed as well.

Footspeed-Probably Ali. Corbett and Tunney would be close. Walcott was pretty fast on his feet as well. Holmes when he wanted to be.

It's most likely there have been many HWs throughout history who had faster hands than Ali, but never really learned how to fight so have been lost to time. Ali certainly was one of the fastest, and best of all knew how to utilize his speed in the ring.

Hand and foot speed in a boxing ring is still a pretty subjective judgment.

Chris Byrd was blazing in his youth. I'm not saying he was faster than Ali or Patterson, but he was definitely up there.

dempseyfire wrote:Louis and Tyson for punchers could fire off extremely fast combinations with serious power.

tyson was a very gifted mover. it is just not that
obvious since peek a boo is less impressive in this
respect than the butterfly ...

.....dempsey......i'm not going to get into the discussion of who was the fastest heavyweight, but your analysis of ezzard charles' style was as good as any i've read by anyone. i saw ezzard when he was younger more than most people here, and your distinction between the younger ezzard and the one of later years was right on :TU

The Great John L wrote:It's most likely there have been many HWs throughout history who had faster hands than Ali, but never really learned how to fight so have been lost to time. Ali certainly was one of the fastest, and best of all knew how to utilize his speed in the ring.

Hand and foot speed in a boxing ring is still a pretty subjective judgment.

I suppose it's possible that there were some who never made it to the big time. Perhaps they had no other abilities and were not very good. However, you can say that for any ability. Maybe there was a guy who had the best chin ever but never made it past fighting 4-round fights becasue he didn't have much else to make him successful. Maybe there was some club fighter who hit the hardest but couldn't land the big shots or had a glass jaw himself.

When we do these lists (the fastest, the best chin, the hardest puncher etc.) I go with what I have seen and whatever evidence I can come up with. Others probably do the same.
I actually think handspeed (and footspeed probably as well) is less subjective than say punching power, best chin, best finisher etc. Here you can take what you think of the guys opponent's out of the equation. Just look at how fast he throws his punches. In some cases it is pretty close between two guys . I have no doubt that I never seen any heavyweight as fast as handspeed Ali when he was young.

Alp, you have to assume that we are talking about those who were able to parlay a certain amount of ring competence, in order to be known by the boxing community.

Like you say, there honestly may be a guy in wheel chair whose ability to absorb a shot would made Chuvalo envious. And somebody else who is loading pallets on the dock somewhere, whom if he hit you, would make a shot from Foreman feel like you got hit by your little sister.

Both lost to time, and lack of opportunity.


And that is what the akashic record is for.