BoxRec

Thoughts ??

It's not the worst and is by no means the greatest, but Blackwell was handled very easily by Martin Murray a while back, and I can't really see him ever being good enough to be more than a UK title holder at the very most, so Saunders should deal with him very easily if he has aspirations for higher levels. A keep busy, risk free run out.

Hopefully Blakewell is a better fighter for the Murray match up which they took ridiculously early. Good luck to him, not a bad match up, Saunders isn't as experienced as Murray was

Think it comes down to how often Saunders fights a year, or is due to fight. Three times = not good enough. Five times+ = fair enough, as a filler. Blackwell is a brave kid but Saunders has decimated guys who appear more durable in Hill and Fletcher recently. Problem for Saunders is that Barker, Macklin, Lee, Murray, etc are all a level or two above at present, though I'd back Saunders against Barker, Lee or McEwan come Spring next year. If Paul Smith could actually make middle that would be a decent fight as well.

Easy win for Billy Joe. Nick had no amateur experience (I think he came from the unlicensed circuit).

I believe he is extremely talented but he is only 21.

He took a real beating from Martin Murray and has had four wins against modest opposition since.

For me he should gradually improve the quality of opposition.

I had the same debate with trainer/manager James Paisley last night.

I believe a boxer should be brought along slowly and go for a title when the time is right for them to give optimum chance.

James believes alongside the Blackwell team that you take a title chance whenever it is offered. I could not disagree more strongly.

When Hamilton fought Theophane he had a real chance so was worth taking it (gulf between them was not great).

For me Saunders wins easily and a 21 year old will be subjected to another heavy defeat.

stevegoodwin wrote:Easy win for Billy Joe. Nick had no amateur experience (I think he came from the unlicensed circuit).

I believe he is extremely talented but he is only 21.

He took a real beating from Martin Murray and has had four wins against modest opposition since.

For me he should gradually improve the quality of opposition.

I had the same debate with trainer/manager James Paisley last night.

I believe a boxer should be brought along slowly and go for a title when the time is right for them to give optimum chance.

James believes alongside the Blackwell team that you take a title chance whenever it is offered. I could not disagree more strongly.

When Hamilton fought Theophane he had a real chance so was worth taking it (gulf between them was not great).

For me Saunders wins easily and a 21 year old will be subjected to another heavy defeat.

I'd disagree Steve, with the proviso that the guy being stepped up isn't going to take a prolonged beating if it spins out that way. The corner should be able to bale him out when it's obvious he's drowning, for me that is often the difference from a guy learning from defeat or getting ruined by it. I don't think Saunders is a true banger, sure he cracks hard but he his recent stoppages remind me of a lot of Calzaghe style ones, guys overwhelmed by speed and workrate and out of his depth. Neither Lacey was allowed to take a beating and was ruined, Manfredo wasnt (by the ref) and it didn't really affect the kid (he was never world class, or near it in my eyes anyway).

Too many kids are fed junk, and for me that can really set them back. The fantasy that cards can have 4/5 fifty fifty fights is just that, a fantasy. Prospects would be getting dented left right and centre and TV companies don't want to send crews around with prospects for a day then watch them get splattered, much as small hall promoters don't want to see a kid build a fanbase and then see it crumble with one loss..............................

However.......... it doesn't aid a kid feeding him stiffs and most undercards, small hall shows have too much of this. Appleby has been matched too tough after the Lindsay fight and it's ruined him (added to other things). Tyrone Nurse has been fed junk and I honestly feel the same thing has happened, just the other way round. Look at the Irish kid Bryne who fought in Oz and the US, fed complete and utter junk, then was stepped up a little and looked dreadful - he's 27/28 FFS

I suppose its a fine balance between bringing a prospect along at a rate which will help him improve and weighing that against the risk of title opportunities offered. I have to admit I slight errr towards the side of "You dont win any titles that you dont fight for" in the sense that Blackwell could end up way out the title race due to a loss draw or injury. Look at Tony Quigley.

The other side of things is you obviously dont want to throw him in as cannon fodder either. From a managerial perspective I have to say that any fight where you think you have a 25% or more chance of winning I would give them the chance and let them take it assuming all things are equal ie decent money, fight isnt in some incredibly biased judging country etc.

Kerry Hope would have been ideal, mabye just coming a bit too soon for him though after the Proska loss

fizzjambo wrote:Kerry Hope would have been ideal, mabye just coming a bit too soon for him though after the Proska loss

Think he fighting someone else..

I think it could be a classic. Nick did get taken to school by Murray but I did hear Nick had bad ribs due to taking some stick off Paul Smith in sparring. No idea how true that is. Billy is talented no doubt but Nick can take a shot and is very game. He was quite impressive stopping Conception last time I saw him. I see it being a barn stormer for about 6 rounds when BJS gets on top and forces a stoppage. BJS toughest fight to date will be Great while it lasts.

At domestic level the middleweight division is not that strong and can see Billy Joe coming close to Rhodes record of winning it outright providing his hand hold out and he doesn't get cuts. The Blackwell fight will be entertaining whilst it last but BJS is a few levels above Blackwell and can see him stopping him in 5-6 rounds

fizzjambo wrote:Think it comes down to how often Saunders fights a year, or is due to fight. Three times = not good enough. Five times+ = fair enough, as a filler. Blackwell is a brave kid but Saunders has decimated guys who appear more durable in Hill and Fletcher recently. Problem for Saunders is that Barker, Macklin, Lee, Murray, etc are all a level or two above at present, though I'd back Saunders against Barker, Lee or McEwan come Spring next year. If Paul Smith could actually make middle that would be a decent fight as well.

heard barkers schooled saunders a few times in sparring!

The Insider wrote:I think it could be a classic. Nick did get taken to school by Murray but I did hear Nick had bad ribs due to taking some stick off Paul Smith in sparring. No idea how true that is. Billy is talented no doubt but Nick can take a shot and is very game. He was quite impressive stopping Conception last time I saw him. I see it being a barn stormer for about 6 rounds when BJS gets on top and forces a stoppage. BJS toughest fight to date will be Great while it lasts.

Really can't see this scenario. BJS is a different level as a fighter and I see him controlling the fight from the get go before a mid-rounds stoppage.

Billy Joe Saunders wins very easily, in fact I think he wins by Stoppage inside 5 rounds, he's got fast hands, hits hard, he's got great movement and is a very well schooled and constantly improving fighter. Blackwell is a tough, game lad but very limited, needs a lot more experience before he should be in these fights, I think he's very lucky to be in the position he's in and to have got the chance he did against Murray, if they keep throwing him in at such a young age with his little experience against these lads that genuinely he doesn't stand a chance with, they risk ruining the kid before his career can even get off, he's a decent but inexperienced kid, give him time to learn his trade, IMO.

fizzjambo wrote:

stevegoodwin wrote:Easy win for Billy Joe. Nick had no amateur experience (I think he came from the unlicensed circuit).

I believe he is extremely talented but he is only 21.

He took a real beating from Martin Murray and has had four wins against modest opposition since.

For me he should gradually improve the quality of opposition.

I had the same debate with trainer/manager James Paisley last night.

I believe a boxer should be brought along slowly and go for a title when the time is right for them to give optimum chance.

James believes alongside the Blackwell team that you take a title chance whenever it is offered. I could not disagree more strongly.

When Hamilton fought Theophane he had a real chance so was worth taking it (gulf between them was not great).

For me Saunders wins easily and a 21 year old will be subjected to another heavy defeat.

I'd disagree Steve, with the proviso that the guy being stepped up isn't going to take a prolonged beating if it spins out that way. The corner should be able to bale him out when it's obvious he's drowning, for me that is often the difference from a guy learning from defeat or getting ruined by it. I don't think Saunders is a true banger, sure he cracks hard but he his recent stoppages remind me of a lot of Calzaghe style ones, guys overwhelmed by speed and workrate and out of his depth. Neither Lacey was allowed to take a beating and was ruined, Manfredo wasnt (by the ref) and it didn't really affect the kid (he was never world class, or near it in my eyes anyway).

Too many kids are fed junk, and for me that can really set them back. The fantasy that cards can have 4/5 fifty fifty fights is just that, a fantasy. Prospects would be getting dented left right and centre and TV companies don't want to send crews around with prospects for a day then watch them get splattered, much as small hall promoters don't want to see a kid build a fanbase and then see it crumble with one loss..............................

However.......... it doesn't aid a kid feeding him stiffs and most undercards, small hall shows have too much of this. Appleby has been matched too tough after the Lindsay fight and it's ruined him (added to other things). Tyrone Nurse has been fed junk and I honestly feel the same thing has happened, just the other way round. Look at the Irish kid Bryne who fought in Oz and the US, fed complete and utter junk, then was stepped up a little and looked dreadful - he's 27/28 FFS

I am NOT advocating the Tyrone Nurse route. If you see interviews I have done, I say that when a boxer steps up to 6 rounds he has to start getting tested. Too many boxers are fed opponents and get undefeated winning records eg Sam Horton (for one) then get demolished when moving up in class. So I dont agree with that.

Neither do I believe that the strategy being pursued by the Blackwell team is the right one.

What I advocate is somewhere in the middle a boxer gets regularly tested with continual improvements in the opponent so the step up in class is gradual rather than being thrown in the deep end.

I cannot see how you can disagree with that!

stevegoodwin wrote:

fizzjambo wrote:

stevegoodwin wrote:Easy win for Billy Joe. Nick had no amateur experience (I think he came from the unlicensed circuit).

I believe he is extremely talented but he is only 21.

He took a real beating from Martin Murray and has had four wins against modest opposition since.

For me he should gradually improve the quality of opposition.

I had the same debate with trainer/manager James Paisley last night.

I believe a boxer should be brought along slowly and go for a title when the time is right for them to give optimum chance.

James believes alongside the Blackwell team that you take a title chance whenever it is offered. I could not disagree more strongly.

When Hamilton fought Theophane he had a real chance so was worth taking it (gulf between them was not great).

For me Saunders wins easily and a 21 year old will be subjected to another heavy defeat.

I'd disagree Steve, with the proviso that the guy being stepped up isn't going to take a prolonged beating if it spins out that way. The corner should be able to bale him out when it's obvious he's drowning, for me that is often the difference from a guy learning from defeat or getting ruined by it. I don't think Saunders is a true banger, sure he cracks hard but he his recent stoppages remind me of a lot of Calzaghe style ones, guys overwhelmed by speed and workrate and out of his depth. Neither Lacey was allowed to take a beating and was ruined, Manfredo wasnt (by the ref) and it didn't really affect the kid (he was never world class, or near it in my eyes anyway).

Too many kids are fed junk, and for me that can really set them back. The fantasy that cards can have 4/5 fifty fifty fights is just that, a fantasy. Prospects would be getting dented left right and centre and TV companies don't want to send crews around with prospects for a day then watch them get splattered, much as small hall promoters don't want to see a kid build a fanbase and then see it crumble with one loss..............................

However.......... it doesn't aid a kid feeding him stiffs and most undercards, small hall shows have too much of this. Appleby has been matched too tough after the Lindsay fight and it's ruined him (added to other things). Tyrone Nurse has been fed junk and I honestly feel the same thing has happened, just the other way round. Look at the Irish kid Bryne who fought in Oz and the US, fed complete and utter junk, then was stepped up a little and looked dreadful - he's 27/28 FFS

I am NOT advocating the Tyrone Nurse route. If you see interviews I have done, I say that when a boxer steps up to 6 rounds he has to start getting tested. Too many boxers are fed opponents and get undefeated winning records eg Sam Horton (for one) then get demolished when moving up in class. So I dont agree with that.

Neither do I believe that the strategy being pursued by the Blackwell team is the right one.

What I advocate is somewhere in the middle a boxer gets regularly tested with continual improvements in the opponent so the step up in class is gradual rather than being thrown in the deep end.

I cannot see how you can disagree with that!

I agree with your 3rd para totally. However IMO Blackwell ain't ever going to get another shot at Saunders, if he wants the fight it's now or quite possibly never. If Blackwell's team don't really think he can win and are then just taking a pay day then I'd agree it's not the right option. If however they think he's got a half decent chance then I'd get him in there. He's got good notice and is less liely to be 'outmanned' by Saunders the way Murray did him. All of this is on the proviso that as soon as Blackwell is feeling the heat his corner get him out sharpish. Like I mentioned a beating could ruin him, a defeat to a blue chip prospect won't.

There is an issue with what you advocate though. I'd imagine it costs good money to pay for good level 'step-up' opposition and often only top prospects such as Khan, Saunders, Price, etc are afforded this. Often we are told guys are being stepped up when in fact they are just being fed shite (I'm not saying this has been the case with Blackwell)

Deserter wrote:

The Insider wrote:I think it could be a classic. Nick did get taken to school by Murray but I did hear Nick had bad ribs due to taking some stick off Paul Smith in sparring. No idea how true that is. Billy is talented no doubt but Nick can take a shot and is very game. He was quite impressive stopping Conception last time I saw him. I see it being a barn stormer for about 6 rounds when BJS gets on top and forces a stoppage. BJS toughest fight to date will be Great while it lasts.

Really can't see this scenario. BJS is a different level as a fighter and I see him controlling the fight from the get go before a mid-rounds stoppage.

I can, I think it will turn into a macho contest and skills will go out the window for a few rounds, both lads love a good scrap. As said I still think BJS wins middle rounds.

With regards your "issue" its not an issue. A boxer just needs a good promoter who is willing to invest in them :)

Will have to agree to disagree with you. If you are saying Blackwell at age of 21 is not good enough to get "another chance" it means you are saying he is not good enough to develop. I dont actually agree with that as Blackwell is still a novice with no amateur experience.

Anyway good to debate

Boxingcutsman wrote:Billy Joe Saunders wins very easily, in fact I think he wins by Stoppage inside 5 rounds, he's got fast hands, hits hard, he's got great movement and is a very well schooled and constantly improving fighter. Blackwell is a tough, game lad but very limited, needs a lot more experience before he should be in these fights, I think he's very lucky to be in the position he's in and to have got the chance he did against Murray, if they keep throwing him in at such a young age with his little experience against these lads that genuinely he doesn't stand a chance with, they risk ruining the kid before his career can even get off, he's a decent but inexperienced kid, give him time to learn his trade, IMO.

I agree. I think it won't be too long before Saunders is moved beyond domestic level as he seems to be improving so much with each fight. Maybe Blackwell and his team should wait for this then he's likely to be among the top fighters domestically. But I suppose the lure of a (British too?)title fight is just too attractive to decline.

Yes of course, i agree, all British fighters want that Lonsdale belt, it's amazing, but Blackwell's team need to way up the pro's and con's, do they challenge for it now with very limited experience and less than a 1% chance of causing a upset, against a top level, young, fresh, hungry, experienced kid or wait another 6 -12 months, Saunders moves on, Blackwell gets a few more fights behind him with slight step up in class each time and then stand at least a 50% chance of winning against another up and coming kid on a level playing field. There's too many brave teams behind some fighters, let the young lads learn there trade, there's no rush, it doesn't matter how tough Nick Blackwell is, there's not too many one sided beatings in him or any fighter for that matter without there being some price to pay, IMO. The more I look over this match up Billy Joe stops Blackwell inside 3, I just hope when the going gets tough, his team are brave enough to pull him out without him taking too much punishment, he's young, let him come again. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

I doubt it is a payday he can turn down and when you don't have a big promoter handing out these opportunities on a plate you have to grab them when they come along.
Maybe if Kerry Hope hadn't of done it he would have never been champion.

Fair comment, but Kerry Hope for one is a lot more experienced than Blackwell and a lot better fighter all round, secondly Billy Joe Saunders is miles better in every department than Gregorz Proksa, he was just another fighter easily steered towards where he got too, the first time he stepped up in genuine class he got demolished.

Boxingcutsman wrote:Fair comment, but Kerry Hope for one is a lot more experienced than Blackwell and a lot better fighter all round, secondly Billy Joe Saunders is miles better in every department than Gregorz Proksa, he was just another fighter easily steered towards where he got too, the first time he stepped up in genuine class he got demolished.

Hopefully proskaand billy joe Saunders get to fight and prove who is better as I am not sure how at this point in time you can say bus is better than proska. I like billy joe but he has not yet got to the level proska is fighting at and the fact golovkin beat him he has nothing to be ashamed of as he clearly did his best and golovkin seems to be a beast that is avoided at the weight

Re-up Gang wrote:

Boxingcutsman wrote:Fair comment, but Kerry Hope for one is a lot more experienced than Blackwell and a lot better fighter all round, secondly Billy Joe Saunders is miles better in every department than Gregorz Proksa, he was just another fighter easily steered towards where he got too, the first time he stepped up in genuine class he got demolished.

Hopefully proskaand billy joe Saunders get to fight and prove who is better as I am not sure how at this point in time you can say bus is better than proska. I like billy joe but he has not yet got to the level proska is fighting at and the fact golovkin beat him he has nothing to be ashamed of as he clearly did his best and golovkin seems to be a beast that is avoided at the weight

Re-up Gang wrote:

Boxingcutsman wrote:Fair comment, but Kerry Hope for one is a lot more experienced than Blackwell and a lot better fighter all round, secondly Billy Joe Saunders is miles better in every department than Gregorz Proksa, he was just another fighter easily steered towards where he got too, the first time he stepped up in genuine class he got demolished.

Hopefully proskaand billy joe Saunders get to fight and prove who is better as I am not sure how at this point in time you can say bus is better than proska. I like billy joe but he has not yet got to the level proska is fighting at and the fact golovkin beat him he has nothing to be ashamed of as he clearly did his best and golovkin seems to be a beast that is avoided at the weight

Very true, Golovkin is a beast, very talented indeed so no shame as you say there. I've worked with Proksa and believe me Billy Joe is better than him already, anyone that is a well schooled boxer Proksa struggles with, Billy Joe, Macklin, Barker, Murray all beat Proksa easily.