BoxRec

Granted, James J. Jeffries & Joe Louis fought in different professional boxing eras.


Had James & Joe fought professionally during the same time frame, had a promoter setup a match between them.


A prime Jeffries vs. a prime Louis. --- Who do you think would have won?

Why?


By "why", it is in referral to which strengths James would have had over Joe.

Vice versa. Which strengths may Joe have had over Jeffries.


Do you see this fight ending in a knockout? Or, a technical knockout?


Or, do you see this fight going the distance?

Intresting fight but i would go for joe louis to beat him,he would of outboxed jeffries in my opinion.

You have got to favour Louis in this, on the available evidence. What would Jeffries be able to do to nullify Louis' speed of punch?
My guess is he does nothing to nullify the speed advantage, but is smart enough to know that his best chance is to stay close, where he can make his strength count for something.

Question 1. Is Jeffries able to withstand the punishment that Louis would undoubtedly deliver? If we know one thing about Jeffries for sure, we know that he was tough. Personally, I would discount the fact that he was stopped by Johnson so emphatically. After a long layoff and a massive weight loss, does not detract from the fact that JJ totally outclassed him, wether a prime Jeffries would have been stopped is not so certain. Jeffries took from Corbett and Fitzsimmons all they had and still had enough to stop both men.
Answer, I don't know. If not, it would not be for lack of balls or pyhsical strength. It comes down to Jeffries' defensive skills, and about this I am not in any position to speculate. Help.

Question 2. Assuming Jeffries survives Louis' offense, and assuming this is a 15 round fight, is he able to inflict enough damage on Louis to stop him or to win on points?
Vulnerable is not the first word that comes to mind when thinking of Joe Louis, but he did get clobbered by Schmeling and decked by Galento. I am not comfortable making a judgement of Louis' defensive capabilities until I have spent more time watching him fight.
I would be very interested to hear the views of those more knowledgeable than myself.

Edit - a very good hypothetical matchup, i look forward to revisiting this after watching a few hours of Joe Louis' career. Shame I can't do the same for Jeffries.

In my opinion Joe Louis would out box him

Techno89 wrote:In my opinion Joe Louis would out box him

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Techno, I was thinking a scenario along the same line also.

witherspoon wrote:You have got to favour Louis in this, on the available evidence. What would Jeffries be able to do to nullify Louis' speed of punch?
My guess is he does nothing to nullify the speed advantage, but is smart enough to know that his best chance is to stay close, where he can make his strength count for something.

Question 1. Is Jeffries able to withstand the punishment that Louis would undoubtedly deliver? If we know one thing about Jeffries for sure, we know that he was tough. Personally, I would discount the fact that he was stopped by Johnson so emphatically. After a long layoff and a massive weight loss, does not detract from the fact that JJ totally outclassed him, wether a prime Jeffries would have been stopped is not so certain. Jeffries took from Corbett and Fitzsimmons all they had and still had enough to stop both men.
Answer, I don't know. If not, it would not be for lack of balls or pyhsical strength. It comes down to Jeffries' defensive skills, and about this I am not in any position to speculate. Help.

Question 2. Assuming Jeffries survives Louis' offense, and assuming this is a 15 round fight, is he able to inflict enough damage on Louis to stop him or to win on points?
Vulnerable is not the first word that comes to mind when thinking of Joe Louis, but he did get clobbered by Schmeling and decked by Galento. I am not comfortable making a judgement of Louis' defensive capabilities until I have spent more time watching him fight.
I would be very interested to hear the views of those more knowledgeable than myself.

Edit - a very good hypothetical matchup, i look forward to revisiting this after watching a few hours of Joe Louis' career. Shame I can't do the same for Jeffries.

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witherspoon, thanks for the prompt response back. Also, for your very in-depth breakdown. Pointing out Jeffries strengths & Louis' strengths.

I have to step out now. I'll be pretty busy in the upcoming days. I should have some time by Sunday evening to respond back.

Either way, I'll definitely get back to you.



In the meantime, later.

I, too, would go for Louis in this one - but I guess we won't know for sure, until kal.majeed reveals his findings!

witherspoon ---- You said "Edit - a very good hypothetical matchup". --- Thanks. Clearly, it is different compared to the usual hypothetical matchups entailing Muhammad Ali vs. another top great.

Or, Mike Tyson vs. a top great, etc..


Hey witherspoon, before I respond back to all of your previous points which you addressed to me, a listing of the top opponents which ---- 1. James J. Jeffries fought.

2. Top opponents which Joe Louis fought.


In regards to #1, the top opponents which James J. Jeffries fought. --- Joe Choynski, Peter Jackson, Tom Sharkey (Twice), Bob Fitzsimmons (Twice), James J. Corbett (Twice) & Jack Johnson.

Other good opponents which Jeffries fought. But, I wouldn't quite rank them as high as the top opponents which I listed in my paragraph above. ---- Hank Griffin & Gus Ruhlin.


In regards to #2, the top opponents which Joe Louis fought. --- Jersey Joe Walcott (Twice), Ezzard Charles, Billy Conn, Max Baer, Max Schmeling (Twice), Arturo Godoy (Twice), Paulino Uzcudun, Jim Braddock & Tommy Farr.


Other good opponents which Joe fought. --- Buddy Baer (Twice), Lou Nova, John Henry Louis, Bob Pastor (Twice) & Al Ettore.



I list the opponents which James fought. The opponents which Joe fought. ----


I'd say that Louis fought a quality & quantity of higher caliber opponents than what Jeffries fought.

witherspoon ---- You said "You have got to favour Louis on this, on the available evidence". --- I'd say so too.


Joe would have an advantage with his rapid, piston-like precision punches. Primarily in the counter-punch mode.


You asked "What would Jeffries be able to do to nullify Louis' speed of punch?". --- Probably Jim rushing in with his squat stance.

But, how effective could Jeffries implement this type of offensive attack?


You said "My guess is he does nothing to nullify the speed advantage". --- Totally agree.

In a hypothetical matchup of Jeffries vs. Louis, I just cannot see James matching Joe in speed.

Primarily in regards to Joes hand speed with his counter-punches.


You said "but is smart enough to know that his best chance is to stay close, where he can make his strength count for something". --- This would probably be Jeffries main choice of an offensive battle plan to try to defeat Louis.


But, how effective could James execute this?


I pose this question, due to Jeffries having a lot of trouble with James J. Corbett in their first meeting.

Had that fight been a 15 round or even a 20 round fight, Jeffries would have lost this fight.


Also, Jeffries had a lot of trouble with Bob Fitzsimmons in their second meeting.

In Jeffries second fight against Fitzsimmons, Jeffries suffered a broken nose, both his cheeks were cut to the bone & gashes were opened over both of his eyes. Blood was very freely flowing into Jeffries eyes.


That Corbett & Fitzsimmons were able to give Jeffries trouble, just think what Joe Louis could have done to Jeffries?

I favor Louis here, but when making a comparison with Jefferies one shouldn't pretend Fitzimmons and Corbett wouldn't have troubled Joe as well . . .

witherspoon --- You said "Question 1. Is Jeffries able to withstand the punishment that Louis would undoubtedly deliver?". --- Not sure.


James withstood the counter-punches of James J. Corbett & Bob Fitzsimmons.


In addition, even when Jeffries was 35 years old, past his prime, not in his tip, top fighting shape such as what he was when he was in his prime, he still took Jack Johnson to the 15th round.


Clearly, Joe Louis had more power than Corbett & Fitzsimmons.

Joe also had more power than Johnson.


You said "Personally, I would discount the fact that he was stopped by Johnson so emphatically". --- Okay.


You said "After a long layoff and a massive weight loss, does not detract from the fact that JJ totally outclassed him". --- So very true.

This right here casts doubt on how capable & effective Jeffries was with learning new techniques in the ring throughout the duration of his professional career.


If Jeffries would have had enough ring knowledge to have effectively countered Louis' knowledge of the ring. Regarding technique.


One would think that Jeffries would have been able to have picked up more knowledge regarding boxing technique via his fights throughout his pro career.


But, Johnson totally dominated Jeffries from round 4 till round 15.

dempseyfire wrote:I favor Louis here, but when making a comparison with Jefferies one shouldn't pretend Fitzimmons and Corbett wouldn't have troubled Joe as well . . .

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dempseyfire, since you mentioned Fitzsimmons & Corbett. ---

1. A hypothetical matchup between Joe Louis against James J. Corbett. --- How do you see this fight going?

2. What strengths would Joe have over Corbett?

3. What strengths would Corbett have (If any) over Joe?


4. A matchup between Joe Louis against Bob Fitzsimmons. --- How do you see this fight going?


5. What strengths would Joe have over Fitzsimmons?


6. What strengths would Fitzsimmons have (If any) over Joe?

witherspoon --- I still have to respond back to several of your previous points which you addressed to me. Hopefully, I should have some time by Friday afternoon. Either way, I'll definitely get back to you.


In the meantime, later.

Depends on the variables! Are we talking 15 round fights with referees and commissions of the 1930s-1940s? Or are we talking contests that could be as high as 45 rounds, with referees who weren't so squeamish, and little three-five ounce gloves? Louis faced trouble with men who swarmed him, such as Arturo Gudoy and of course Rocky Marciano. Jeffries you must understand was bigger than both these men in one way or another, being 6'2" and fighting anywhere between 215 and 240 pounds and he never tasted defeat until he met Jack Johnson after six years inactivity with no tune ups and losing over a hundred pounds. Jeffries had that same style that troubled Louis, and contrary to popular depictions of him being nothing more than a white hope, at his peak Jeffries was rather fast on his feet for a man of his size. Let us also not forget, the greatest fighter of them all Sam Langford used to promote himself as willing to take on all comers, except Jim Jeffries. He was that feared and admired. Do not think that it was race alone that made people believe that Jeffries would beat Johnson in his unfortunate comeback, this man was so awesome for the time that nobody believed he could lose period. Louis was arguably the most dominating champion in history, but he had his flaws, he was far from perfect. He was dropped quite often by men who were considered average or below par, and he struggled with smaller men like Billy Conn. He could be hurt, he could be out boxed and out slugged. A man like Jeffries could absorb ten, fifteen, twenty rounds of pure punishment and come back to knock you out with one punch. I think personally Jeffries had the ability to of hurt Louis and of dropped him. The question is, could he of kept him down?

witherspoon ---- You said "If we know one thing about Jeffries for sure, we know that he was tough". --- Oh, James J. Jeffries was BIG TIME tough.


In addition (Most of all), James had heart & guts. Two very critical factors that CANNOT be "learned".

The variables of heart & guts are still in value & critical today.


James J. Jeffries attitude in the ring, was something which today's boxers largely don't have.


James could take INHUMAN amounts of punishment.

Jeffries was known for his enormous strength & stamina. He fought out of a crouch. James was able to absorb tremendous punishment. In his attempt at wearing his opponents down. Jeffries possessed lethal punching power in both fists. Especially in his very lethal left hook.

James was not an explosive puncher. He was more of a thudding slugger.



witherspoon, here are two statements from two respective people in boxing. In regards to what they had to say about Jeffries. ----


1. Historian & boxing book author, Gilbert Odd. ---- Back in 1974, Gilbert wrote this about James. ---- "James J. Jeffries was the strongest of all the heavyweight champions.


2. Former heavyweight boxer, Henry Cooper. ----- Henry stated this. ----- "James J. Jeffries had a punch that might have knocked out a horse".

witherspoon ------ You said "Jeffries took from Corbett and Fitzsimmons all they had and still had enough to stop both men". ---- You are 150% correct about this.


James J. Jeffries could absorb some VERY serious punishment. This was especially the case in James second fight against Fitzsimmons.


In Jeffries second fight against Fitzsimmons. ----- When this fight ended, James walked up to Fitzsimmons. To shake his hand.

Jeffries stated this to Fitzsimmons. ----- "Those things on your hands cut me up a lot".

James said this to Fitzsimmons as he was feeling the tape on Fitzsimmons hands.

Next, Jeffries stated this to Fitzsimmons. ---- "You didn't wear them the last time and your blows never cut me up the way they did tonight".


There have been many claims that Fitzsimmons had plaster of Paris under his bandages.

Also, that Jeffries trainer, Delaney, discovered it before the bout. That Delaney told James about this. But, Jeffries just shrugged this off. Didn't even care.


Right after the second fight ended, Fitzsimmons tossed his gloves into the audience. Right as James was approaching.

The second fight, Jeffries had injuries. James face was severely battered. He was bleeding & badly marked up.

Jeffries would not have another fight for a whole year. Before he would defend his title again.


So, it SURE points towards Fitzsimmons cheating in the second fight.

HomicideHenry. ------ You said "Depends on the variables! Are we talking 15 round fights with referees and commissions of the 1930s-1940s? Or are we talking contests that could be as high as 45 rounds, with referees who weren't so squeamish, and little three-five ounce gloves?".


How about both of your respective scenarios?


1. A prime James J. Jeffries vs. a prime Joe Louis in a scheduled 15 round fight. Which has a referee & the commissions of the 1930s / 1940s.

Who do you think would win?



2. A prime James J. Jeffries vs. a prime Joe Louis in a scheduled 45 round fight. Which has a referee which wasn't so squeamish. Where the fighters had 5 to 3 ounce gloves.


Who do you think would win?

HomicideHenry ----- You said "Louis faced trouble with men who swarmed him, such as Arturo Godoy and of course Rocky Marciano". ---- Very much so.


You said "Jeffries you must understand was bigger than both these men in one way or another, being 6'2" and fighting anywhere between 215 and 240 pounds and he never tasted defeat until he met Jack Johnson after six years inactivity with no tune ups and losing over a hundred pounds". -----

Your 3 points here. ---- You are 150% correct.


James J. Jeffries was a bigger as well as a stronger version of Rocky Marciano or Joe Frazier.

HomicideHenry ------ You said "and contrary to popular depictions of him being nothing more than a white hope, at his peak Jeffries was rather fast on his feet for a man of his size". ---- Big time.


What John L. Sullivan said about James J. Jeffries. Sullivan stated this. ---- "James J. Jeffries is the fastest big man I ever saw in the ring".



You said "A man like Jeffries could absorb ten, fifteen, twenty rounds of pure punishment and come back to knock you out with one punch". ----- Yep.


Jeffries style was this. ---- To attack low in a crouch. Slipping inside his opponents offense. James was like "a Marciano before the Marciano".

To hammer away at his opponents body & head.


James had lethal power in both of his fists. Especially his very lethal left hook.


Tommy Ryan is largely credited with teaching & crafting Jeffries. With James crouch & body being hunched over.

Jeffries was known for slipping inside his opponents offense. Banging away at his opponents body. Taking his opponents apart over the course of a fight.

This was especially the case in James second fight against Corbett. In this fight, Jeffries systematically took apart & destroyed Corbett.

HomicideHenry ----- You said "I think personally Jeffries had the ability to of hurt Louis and dropped him". ---- I'm in total agreement.


You said "The question is, could he of kept him down?". ---- I'd say yes.


I say this, because of these advantages which Jeffries had going for him. Here they are. ----


1. James physical mass & bulk.


2. James immense stamina.


4. James boxing style. ---- He fought out of a crouch. He utilized a slugger style. But, due to his speed, stamina & endurance. --- At times, he also incorporated a swarmer type style.


5. James threshold of pain. ----- He could absorb a TREMENDOUS amount of punishment.


6. James brutal punching power. ---- He had lethal power in both of his fists. Especially in his very lethal left hook.

HomicideHenry. ----- In regards to your question. ---- "Could Jeffries have kept Louis down"?.

A few more points. As to why I think that Jeffries could have.


Granted, James was not the most aggressive fighter. Jeffries beat many of his top opponents by wearing them out over an aggregate of rounds.

James had PROVEN endurance. He was able to fight 25 rounds. Still maintain his power late in the fight.


Which TRULY showcases Jeffries VERY lethal punching power. -----

James fights against these 3 respective top opponents. ----- James J. Corbett, Gus Ruhlin & Tom Sharkey.


In Jeffries fights against these 3 opponents. --- James broke the ribs of Corbett, Ruhlin & Sharkey.



So, I'd say that Jeffries could definitely have kept Louis down for the count.

surprisingly easy one for louis IMHO.
skill difference too big.

man wrote:surprisingly easy one for louis IMHO.
skill difference too big.

That seems to be the consensus on this forum, but styles make fights, and Louis was at his best stalking his opponent which is why he did get dropped a fair number times. Jeffries loved it when guys came at him, and he was a big hitter, so an upset in this matchup would not be a surprise.

Louis was the better fighter, but that doesn't mean he wins every time. He was also a better fighter than Max Schmeling, but that didn't exactly turn out the way it was supposed to either.

The Great John L wrote:so an upset in this matchup would not be a surprise.

i see where you're coming from, but you might
admit you have a funny way of phrasing ...

:)

man wrote:

The Great John L wrote:so an upset in this matchup would not be a surprise.

i see where you're coming from, but you might
admit you have a funny way of phrasing ...

:)

Some upsets aren't really surprising.