BoxRec

What the opinion on this? Whats better the Journeyman or the import?. I personally think that a tuff british Journeyman provides more of a test than the import with the padded record of gym fights and an undefeated record I personally believe its a just away of fooling the public that the fight is going to be competitive. Don't get me wrong you do get the odd upset but thats the same with a Journeyman.

Is a Bulgarian import cheaper than a British journeyman? Probably.

If you're managing/promoting a lad who is going nowhere but can shift tickets by the barrow load, I'd say that bringing in Bulgarians, Latvians and Lithuanians with padded records is better than a British journeyman. Let's be honest, all the boy's fans want are a win and all the Bulgarian wants is paying. If you can announce an opponent with a record of 5-1, it sounds better than 7-150.

If you're managing/promoting a lad who is going somewhere, or at least might be, I think you should match with a bit more direction and progressive intent.

Phil you hit the Nail of the head, your pot on

From another topic-

Londonirish wrote:

stevegoodwin wrote:
Every boxer apart from Dochev has a positive record. Therefore no prospect v survival journeyman fights

Think its Great that you have got TV and the best of Luck For any boxing fan to tune in with it being on Freeview is nice.. I understand that they are Positive records BUT they are from Bulgaria and Lithuania. imo with a British survival Journeyman the fight might go the Distance. For TV it looks great Two unbeaten fighter's going head to head but for anyone that knows anything about boxing there (Bulgaria and Lithuania) unbeaten record means Nothing at all.

Depends on the type of journeymen, too many spoilers who try to last 4 or 6 rounds and offer nothing offensively.

Foreigners? Well it depends, you look at some boxers like that Vitaly Martynov who Khan blitzed in 1 round and you wonder how the hell he managed to compile a 10-1 record what standard of opponent must he have been facing. So yeah these eastern euros can be a mixed bag.

I like the "teak tough" Ghanains best "he's from the same country as Azumah Nelson" fornicating hell I'm from the same country as John Conteh but that doesn't mean I'm as good does it?

There was a Hungarian & a Bulgarian on Coldwells bill last night & guess what they both got stopped in the first round from nothing shots. So from that repect the fans & the boxer just got short changed.

I think a good British journeyman will test lads more than a chubby foreign guy who can be blown over.

I think a lot of fighters are still fighting journeyman after too many fights, once you have had 5 or 6 time to move on.

Some of the ghananian imports are ridiculous tuff and solid ad are a good test for prospects.

philipgill wrote:What the opinion on this? Whats better the Journeyman or the import?. I personally think that a tuff british Journeyman provides more of a test than the import with the padded record of gym fights and an undefeated record I personally believe its a just away of fooling the public that the fight is going to be competitive. Don't get me wrong you do get the odd upset but thats the same with a Journeyman.

With due respect Phil I think all the foreign lads who boxed on the show on Saturday are far superior to pretty much all of your journeyman opponents you had on your record and the lads boxing them will have learned a lot more from them than you did for yours.

There are foreign imports and foreign imports and if you look at our last two shows we exercise qulity control.

Dave Coldwell had two foreign imports who went down in the first round on Friday and thats not good enough. His International Matchmaker needs to be more careful.

Imports are in fact more expensive to bring over than UK journeyman but if you choose the right ones they have a different midset. They are not there just to survive. Most try to win.

In the longer term I believe this will prepare the boxers better for when they have their title shot as they will suffer some adversity.

stevegoodwin wrote:

philipgill wrote:What the opinion on this? Whats better the Journeyman or the import?. I personally think that a tuff british Journeyman provides more of a test than the import with the padded record of gym fights and an undefeated record I personally believe its a just away of fooling the public that the fight is going to be competitive. Don't get me wrong you do get the odd upset but thats the same with a Journeyman.

With due respect Phil I think all the foreign lads who boxed on the show on Saturday are far superior to pretty much all of your journeyman opponents you had on your record and the lads boxing them will have learned a lot more from them than you did for yours.

There are foreign imports and foreign imports and if you look at our last two shows we exercise qulity control.

Dave Coldwell had two foreign imports who went down in the first round on Friday and thats not good enough. His International Matchmaker needs to be more careful.

Imports are in fact more expensive to bring over than UK journeyman but if you choose the right ones they have a different midset. They are not there just to survive. Most try to win.

In the longer term I believe this will prepare the boxers better for when they have their title shot as they will suffer some adversity.

Wasnt a pop at you Steve!! I was just thinking back to some of the shockers that Mick had on the last show of his I boxed on all going over in the first round.

Yes some that come over are competitve but Id say 8 of 10 are a joke !

All depends on who the agent is who brings the imports in but at the end of the day the agent brings in what the promotor wants

joelouis1234 wrote:

spudder56 wrote:All depends on who the agent is who brings the imports in but at the end of the day the agent brings in what the promotor wants

and what does Steve Goodwin want....?

Steve wants boxers who are not going to fold as soon as they see a glove as I beleive he likes to give value for money on his shows and good luck to him

Wasnt a pop at you Steve!! I was just thinking back to some of the shockers that Mick had on the last show of his I boxed on all going over in the first round.

Yes some that come over are competitve but Id say 8 of 10 are a joke ![/quote]

Totally agree mate. The promoter can get these type of foreign imports and you know what you are getting.

We are not interested in that sort of quality of import.

Our international matchmaker Derek Waddell and I work closely on this and it works

The problem with a lot of British journeymen is that they are professional losers.

Most of them don't turn up to actually try and win, which defeats the object of a contest....

Not sure why promoters would like to pad records out so much - after all, I'm sure it takes nearly as much time to look after a bad boxer as it does a good one, so you might as well find out which is which at the earliest possible opportunity?

LeedsLad wrote:The problem with a lot of British journeymen is that they are professional losers.

Most of them don't turn up to actually try and win, which defeats the object of a contest....

Not sure why promoters would like to pad records out so much - after all, I'm sure it takes nearly as much time to look after a bad boxer as it does a good one, so you might as well find out which is which at the earliest possible opportunity?

If journeymen started turning up and destroying unbeaten records especially against ticket sellers they just wouldnt get any work its as simple as that its sad I know but its true and to be fair its always been like that

At that level of the game the promoter almost always gets what he wants out of an opponent. On the rare occasions when he doesn't there is usually a backstage episode of dummy-spitting.

spudder56 wrote:

LeedsLad wrote:The problem with a lot of British journeymen is that they are professional losers.

Most of them don't turn up to actually try and win, which defeats the object of a contest....

Not sure why promoters would like to pad records out so much - after all, I'm sure it takes nearly as much time to look after a bad boxer as it does a good one, so you might as well find out which is which at the earliest possible opportunity?

If journeymen started turning up and destroying unbeaten records especially against ticket sellers they just wouldnt get any work its as simple as that its sad I know but its true and to be fair its always been like that

Has it?

Seems like a bit of an old wive's tale to me.

They should have a bit of professional pride. A few times I've seen a journeyman appear more than capable of either winning, or even stopping the home fighter - and they back off.

But the backing off is so damn obvious, it's ridiculous really.

Peter McDonagh has turned a few people over in his time, his phone still rings pretty regularly obviously.

Those are the journeymen we need, it's unfortunate that they might receive a token draw or a one point defeat when really they've won, but I see little point to tedious 40-36 or 60-54 matchups, I'd rather stand in the bar and have a pint than watch such rubbish, or the endless stream of KO1's when it's a decent kid against an Eastern Euro fighter who shouldn't even be in there.

I've never boxed in my life, and other than whacking a few bags at my gym and doing a bit of Boxercise I've 0 experience... an unco-ordinated mess. But I'm convinced that I could put up a better effort than some of what's imported to fight over here.

That's not meant to be disrespectful, it's just my honest opinion. A guy who Tony Jeffries hammered inside a round would struggle to beat my mother. All 5'1'' and 110lbs of her.

@LeedsLad

If a home-town ticket seller who is never going to get within a sniff of an area title boxes guys who have no intention of winning and every intention of losing, does it matter? I don't think it does. If the baying locals are happy, the home-town sluggers are happy, the promoters are happy, and the journeymen/Eurobums are happy: everybody's happy.

Conversely, guys with potential should be brought along and developed using progressively more challenging opponents until they're ready to be let off the leash. The pace of this development will vary case by case. Here the promoter, manager, trainer and boxer should really look to take something away from every fight that is more than just the win. Most do, some don't. I think it's important that opponents for prospects are either known entities or the matchmaker has a strong enough relationship with the overseas managers he is dealing with to be as close to certain as he can be that he's going to get what he's asked for.

JLP wrote:@LeedsLad

If a home-town ticket seller who is never going to get within a sniff of an area title boxes guys who have no intention of winning and every intention of losing, does it matter? I don't think it does. If the baying locals are happy, the home-town sluggers are happy, the promoters are happy, and the journeymen/Eurobums are happy: everybody's happy.

Conversely, guys with potential should be brought along and developed using progressively more challenging opponents until they're ready to be let off the leash. The pace of this development will vary case by case. Here the promoter, manager, trainer and boxer should really look to take something away from every fight that is more than just the win. Most do, some don't. I think it's important that opponents for prospects are either known entities or the matchmaker has a strong enough relationship with the overseas managers he is dealing with to be as close to certain as he can be that he's going to get what he's asked for.

It matters to me if I'm buying a ticket, yes.

Otherwise we might as well watch wrestling or Italian football.

billy bessey wrote:

LeedsLad wrote:

JLP wrote:@LeedsLad

If a home-town ticket seller who is never going to get within a sniff of an area title boxes guys who have no intention of winning and every intention of losing, does it matter? I don't think it does. If the baying locals are happy, the home-town sluggers are happy, the promoters are happy, and the journeymen/Eurobums are happy: everybody's happy.

Conversely, guys with potential should be brought along and developed using progressively more challenging opponents until they're ready to be let off the leash. The pace of this development will vary case by case. Here the promoter, manager, trainer and boxer should really look to take something away from every fight that is more than just the win. Most do, some don't. I think it's important that opponents for prospects are either known entities or the matchmaker has a strong enough relationship with the overseas managers he is dealing with to be as close to certain as he can be that he's going to get what he's asked for.

It matters to me if I'm buying a ticket, yes.


Otherwise we might as well watch wrestling or Italian football.

X2

This is exactly what we are trying to do. We believe boxers should be tested and fans entertained. Sometimes they can lose Billy Cayzer was stopped by Stillain Kostov in September. Joe Mullender was having a hard time of it last Saturday for a round or so. Tyler Goodjohn had some problems before winning. They will earn from this and develop whilst being in entertaining fights.

I do accept some promoters bring over usless imports who fall over. The only time this happened to us was when a manager insisted on a fighter and we had no choice. That will not happen again.

What you can always say if a trainer or manager tries to insist on a weaker opponent is ''don't fight then, don't earn''.

It's disrespectful to the paying public to fight useless opponents who don't even try, if I was a fighter I'd wager that after the first mismatch my mates (and theirs who they've brought along) would be asking if the opponent is going to hit me back this time.

They won't pay £30-40 for a ticket, plus that again in travel costs, a bit of grub and beers to watch me smack a clown around for three minutes.

LeedsLad wrote:
They won't pay £30-40 for a ticket, plus that again in travel costs, a bit of grub and beers to watch me smack a clown around for three minutes.

I agree - it is basic common sense, but then you get the promoters on here and elsewhere blaming everybody except themselves.

I have read somewhere that the average British pro has less than 10 fights before they retire. Is this because their friends and family will only buy so many tickets to watch them beat up an opponent before they get fed up - and if they get fed up, the tickets dry up and the fights stop.

actually lots of friends and family do buy tickets to watch ther man smack sum1 round for 3 minutes.they just want to see ther guy win and cudnt care less who the guy is,if ur winning they keep coming and the promoters know this.its only the harden boxing fan that wont take being short changed and a kid selling 100 tickets,the truth is most simply bought one to watch ther guy win.its about time promoters promoted ther show and sold them out and let the boxer do his job and just box and not do the promoters aswell!!

Kells, you're right and it goes back to the points I raised earlier. There are naff pros who can't fight but can shift tickets and all their people want to see is them winning. Hardened boxing fans shouldn't really be turning out to watch these guys as these kids are never going to go anywhere along the title route and the matches are almost exclusively one-sided and/or mapped in advance. That's why I don't have any problems with promoters bringing in tomato cans and patsies for these guys to beat. If tickets are being sold it's all good. It's an undercurrent of the game that you can ignore if you so choose and doesn't matter.

Real prospects are different and they are the people real boxing fans should be paying to watch and seeing matched well.

yer agree ther mate,let friends and family go cheer ther lad on and get the win and they all go home happy and the real boxing fan save his money to go watch the prospects being pushed and tried as they make ther way to a title

philipgill wrote:What the opinion on this? Whats better the Journeyman or the import?. I personally think that a tuff british Journeyman provides more of a test than the import with the padded record of gym fights and an undefeated record I personally believe its a just away of fooling the public that the fight is going to be competitive. Don't get me wrong you do get the odd upset but thats the same with a Journeyman.

No offence mate but I have just looked up your own record and you have definitely benefitted from the current culture in British boxing to "employ an opponent".

we are back to the arguament that there are different types of journeyman, personally... journeymen that try are head and shoulders above these imports, but 'go through the motions' journeymen.... you can stick 'em as far as im concerned.