BoxRec

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 00:16**

Who was the better all-time great? Zarate or Gomez? Zarate was my man and he got destroyed by Gomez in P.R. at a higher weight. But Nobody in history has a record like Zarate. What a friggin, monster.

I think the fight between the two would have been much better if Zarate was 100% that day. But he wasn't and he got the shit beat out of him by a younger, faster puncher.

Who's historically better? I loved Zarate and I hated Gomez but that don't mean shit in this discussion.

Please let's hear the thought of those that watched them fight in their primes.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 04:23**

BarryWashington wrote:very close one. might give the slight edge to gomez

Agreed. They were each great at one weight, but Bazooka showed he could be a top fighter moving up. (And I'm not counting the Lockridge farce.)

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 11:50**

The great Wilfredo Gomez was a great fighter and a very complete one. The great Carlos Zarate was a KO artist in the bantamweight class, but he was not a complete fighter. At 118lbs, he, like Gomez, were invincible!

When they fought in Puerto Rico, I think Zarate made two big mistakes:
1. He should have never gone to Puerto Rico to fight a guy that had the crowd behind him, and was bigger and stronger
2. Before the fight, some insiders were saying that Zarate was sick and not 100% fit. But like a macho man that Zarate was, he thought he had the punch and had that macho man pride, he went with the fight anyway.

But I think this a case of a great big man fighting a great smaller man and the great big man won. After that, look how the great Salvador Sanchez did to Gomez? The same case scenario, except, they fought in a neutral site.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 14:55**

Was a huge fan of both. Gomez, IMO, had better all-around skills. Sans the Sanchez fight, when he finally met a fighter he couldn't walk through, Gomez had an amazing run for a decade before getting caught and stopped by Azumah Nelson in a close fight in 1984. Accurate and relentless at 122, good enough boxer at 126 to make LaPorte look like a clubfighter. Knocked out seven current, future or former champions in that time. Like Zarate, didn't seem to carry his power when he moved up. Was sad to see Zarate come back and get hammered by a prime Fenech

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 15:05**

Gomez has a pretty clear edge.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 16:38**

elmersalsa wrote:The great Wilfredo Gomez was a great fighter and a very complete one. The great Carlos Zarate was a KO artist in the bantamweight class, but he was not a complete fighter. At 118lbs, he, like Gomez, were invincible!

When they fought in Puerto Rico, I think Zarate made two big mistakes:
1. He should have never gone to Puerto Rico to fight a guy that had the crowd behind him, and was bigger and stronger
2. Before the fight, some insiders were saying that Zarate was sick and not 100% fit. But like a macho man that Zarate was, he thought he had the punch and had that macho man pride, he went with the fight anyway.

But I think this a case of a great big man fighting a great smaller man and the great big man won. After that, look how the great Salvador Sanchez did to Gomez? The same case scenario, except, they fought in a neutral site.

Is using the word "great" six times in a post a record?

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 16:59**

Rover wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:The great Wilfredo Gomez was a great fighter and a very complete one. The great Carlos Zarate was a KO artist in the bantamweight class, but he was not a complete fighter. At 118lbs, he, like Gomez, were invincible!

When they fought in Puerto Rico, I think Zarate made two big mistakes:
1. He should have never gone to Puerto Rico to fight a guy that had the crowd behind him, and was bigger and stronger
2. Before the fight, some insiders were saying that Zarate was sick and not 100% fit. But like a macho man that Zarate was, he thought he had the punch and had that macho man pride, he went with the fight anyway.

But I think this a case of a great big man fighting a great smaller man and the great big man won. After that, look how the great Salvador Sanchez did to Gomez? The same case scenario, except, they fought in a neutral site.
Is using the word "great" six times in a post a record?

Yes, Both of them were great fighters. Fighters that we would never see in our lifetime again Rover. They deserved to be called great 6 times and more. That is how great these guys were.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 19:47**

Il Duce wrote:As much as I appreciate the Greatness of Wilfredo 'Bazooka' Gomez,

This was just a 'Bad Night in Puerto Rico' for Carlos Zarate,

#1 - The 'Zarate Team' completely under-estimated Wilfredo Gomez.
#2 - They were expecting Wilfredo to run and run.
#3 - They thought, that as soon as Carlos hit Wilfredo, he would run even faster
#4 - Questions about the pre-fight scale were under scrutiny, as some say Wilfredo was close to 126 lbs.

#s 1-3 may as well be combined into #1, and that doesn't detract from Gomez. As for the scale manipulation, so what if "some say" (phrase that drives me nuts, though I'm sometimes guilty of using it) it occurred. That's just gossip.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 19:48**

elmersalsa wrote:
Rover wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:The great Wilfredo Gomez was a great fighter and a very complete one. The great Carlos Zarate was a KO artist in the bantamweight class, but he was not a complete fighter. At 118lbs, he, like Gomez, were invincible!

When they fought in Puerto Rico, I think Zarate made two big mistakes:
1. He should have never gone to Puerto Rico to fight a guy that had the crowd behind him, and was bigger and stronger
2. Before the fight, some insiders were saying that Zarate was sick and not 100% fit. But like a macho man that Zarate was, he thought he had the punch and had that macho man pride, he went with the fight anyway.

But I think this a case of a great big man fighting a great smaller man and the great big man won. After that, look how the great Salvador Sanchez did to Gomez? The same case scenario, except, they fought in a neutral site.
Is using the word "great" six times in a post a record?
Yes, Both of them were great fighters. Fighters that we would never see in our lifetime again Rover. They deserved to be called great 6 times and more. That is how great these guys were.

Nonsense. We wouldn't see those particular fighters again because each fighter is unique, but we've seen equally great fighters since.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 19:53**

I like Gomez in this hypothetical. I wish I could think of a way to fit the word great in there 7 times, I want the record.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 19:57**

Rover wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
Rover wrote: Is using the word "great" six times in a post a record?
Yes, Both of them were great fighters. Fighters that we would never see in our lifetime again Rover. They deserved to be called great 6 times and more. That is how great these guys were.
Nonsense. We wouldn't see those particular fighters again because each fighter is unique, but we've seen equally great fighters since.

I think Morales, Barrera & Marquez arguably rate higher than either of them.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 21:39**

Rover wrote:
elmersalsa wrote:
Rover wrote:
Nonsense. We wouldn't see those particular fighters again because each fighter is unique, but we've seen equally great fighters since.

No we have not. We have not seen guys of that caliber: Gomez-Zarate-Sanchez...I have not seen nothing like those guys ever since

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 21:47**

You just mentioned one: Sanchez. That was after Zarate retired, and he destroyed Gomez.
Chavez was also in that class and had a far superior resume to Zarate.
That's not even including fighters like Hagler, Hearns and SRL, all of whom won their titles after Zarate retired following the Pintor loss.

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 22:05**

Rover wrote:You just mentioned one: Sanchez. That was after Zarate retired, and he destroyed Gomez.
Chavez was also in that class and had a far superior resume to Zarate.
That's not even including fighters like Hagler, Hearns and SRL, all of whom won their titles after Zarate retired following the Pintor loss.

All of those guys that you mentioned above were in Zarate's time. Probably were not champions b 1978, but they were around. I am talking about since those guys left, not even Marco Antonio Barrera nor Erik Morales could match the skills of those monsters: Zarate-Gomez and Sanchez

Posted: **27 Dec 2012, 22:11**

elmersalsa wrote:
Rover wrote:You just mentioned one: Sanchez. That was after Zarate retired, and he destroyed Gomez.
Chavez was also in that class and had a far superior resume to Zarate.
That's not even including fighters like Hagler, Hearns and SRL, all of whom won their titles after Zarate retired following the Pintor loss.
All of those guys that you mentioned above were in Zarate's time. Probably were not champions b 1978, but they were around. I am talking about since those guys left, not even Marco Antonio Barrera nor Erik Morales could match the skills of those monsters: Zarate-Gomez and Sanchez

What do you mean by "Zarate's time"? Zarate retired in 79 and came back when he was shot.
Sanchez was a nobody at that time. You mentioned Gomez and then Zarate and then have just inserted Sanchez in the mix.
Chavez hadn't even turned pro when Zarate retired; he was clearly in that class.
So was Holyfield.
So was Hopkins.
So was Whitaker.
Just a few names.

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 13:02**

Il Duce wrote:Jorge Zarate (Carlos' brother) stated that the scale was 'rigged'.

Jorge, 'We knew there would be some funny business in Puerto Rico, but there was
alot of money on the table. Even if we lost, we still had the WBC Bantamweight
Title Belt.'

Jorge, 'Carlos was coming on in Round 4, as you could see Wilfredo was backing up
and looked hurt. Then that wild left hook caught Carlos flush. And the British Referee
(Hary Gibbs) was slow in reacting during the follow-up flurry after the knockdown. Carlos
was on his knee, and Gomez threw a cheap-shot on my brother.'

Yep, just as I'd expected. That source is about as biased as it gets, and the quotes you cite don't even say it was rigged, but that's neither here nor there considering the source.

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 16:56**

Il Duce wrote:'Biased'

Didn't Wilfredo land '2' Bazooka punches on Carlos when he was touching the canvas.

Very Dirty Play by Wilfredo.

And what does that have to do with whether the scale was rigged?
You made a claim, I asked for sources, you provided Zarate's brother, I then asked for an unbiaased source, and you then changed the subject.
Classic.

Posted: **28 Dec 2012, 18:13**

Il Duce wrote:The scales were always 'rigged' in Puerto Rico.

Jorge Zarate, quote,,,,,,,

Assoictated Press, the day after the fight.

And that's just some general quote; he (according to this quote) didn't say he'd seen it here, just that it always happens (and he provided nothing to back it up).
It's now patently obvious that your only source for this is Zarate's brother. That's as biased as it gets. All you've done since is change the subject and then return to Zarate's brother. Try again.

Posted: **30 Dec 2012, 10:10**

Il Duce wrote:Afte the bout in Puerto Rico on Saturday Night -

Sunday in Mexico City - Carlos Zarate

'The crowd noise (11,000 in Roberto Clemente Stadium) was so loud, nobody could hear anything
in the ring. I didn't hear the bell ending the 4th Round, and the British Referee (Harry Gibbs) couldn't
stop Wilfredo from hitting me after the bell.'

'I should have had an additional minute rest after the 4th Round, and Wilfredo should have been penalized
a point. I'm not saying I would have won the fight, but I should have had a fair chance. I might retire now, and
forget about trying to get a rematch.'

Jorge Zarate -

'Carlos got on the scale 'twice' and both times the scale said 124 lbs. (2 lbs. over) at the pre-fight weigh-in.
He worked out for an hour, and when he got back on the scale, he weighed 124 1/2 lbs. We were in Puerto Rico for 9-days
before the fight, and Carlos made weight (122 lbs.) after every work-out, with our scale. Somebody was playing around
with that fight scale.'

The quotes from Carlos have nothing to do with the scale and hence are irrelevant to this argument.
And you keep going back to his brother as the only source that the scale was rigged. As biased as it gets. Try again.
Hmmm...maybe Zarate's scale was the bad one?
This is getting hilarious. When you're called out, the only thing you can do is keep citing quotes from Zarate and his brother.
I'll keep responding each time you do it just to cause you to have to do more work to dig up quotes from the same biased source that are baseless and show nothing except for a camp of sore losers.

Posted: **30 Dec 2012, 13:49**

Il Duce wrote:Jorge Zarate -

'We would like to fight Wilfredo Gomez in Mexico City next year (1979), and using a proper scale and
calibrated by the WBC, not the Puerto Rican officials.'

'Look at the size of Gomez. He looked so much bigger than my brother, yet he made weight, and we
we were 2 lbs. over. That is Okay, as next time in Mexico City it will be different.'

And you pathetically continue to cite Zarate's brother as the ONLY source the scale was rigged.
You've had days, and this is the best you can do?
You must have realized how weak your argument about this was when you threw in the "some say" thing and then got called out on it.

Posted: **30 Dec 2012, 15:54**

Il Duce wrote:Common knowledge that in the mid-late 1970's, that things were always slanted
against visiting fighters when they came to Puerto Rico.

That's why 'Salinas Promotions' paid the visitors 'bigger bucks'.

Puerto Rican Officials, Puerto Rican Judges, and a Puerto Rican Boxing Commission appointed Referee.

Gibbs was from Britain. Yes, local commissions usually appoint refs; so what? That is what happens in the U.S.
Another post providing nothing to support the "rigged" argument.
You've now gone from "some say" (Zarate's brother) to "common knowledge." Try again.

Posted: **30 Dec 2012, 16:22**

Il Duce wrote:Associated Press, (Mexico City)

Cuyo Hernandez (Carlos Zarate's Manager)

'We were paid handsomely, and I will not complain about the fight contract. Whether both fighters
weighed in at 126 or 124 or 122, it made no difference, as Gomez was the better fighter
Saturday Night. I have the word of Gomez' Manager - Gabriel Penagaricano, that we will have
a rematch by the middle of next year, in either Las Vegas or Mexico City. But, not in Puerto Rico.'

Associated Press (Puerto Rico)

Gabriel Penagaricano (Wilfredo Gomez' Manager)

'I understand about the weigh-in, as there seemed to be some confusion about the scale. But, the
bout had to go on, as there was too much money on the table to postpone the Championship fight.
The WBC took their sanctioning fee, so that certifies the fight in my eye.'

'Wilfredo is going to have a couple of bouts in New York, early next year (1979), and then after that
we'll put together a rematch with Zarate, if he's still around.'

Nothing there said the scale was rigged. Zarate's camp claimed it was; that's all I see here. Whether or not there'd be a rematch (Zarate didn't fight for almost 6 years after Pintor) has nothing to do with this.
So we're left again with just Zarate's brother.
Try again.

Posted: **30 Dec 2012, 18:06**

Il Duce wrote:Correct,

Jorge Zarate said the scale was rigged before (brother Carlos') pre-fight weigh-in.

Not sure how you would go on to confirm that, other than to take Jorge Zarate's word,
who said his brother was making 122 lbs. all week prior to the weigh-in.

$250,000 in October 1978 - will make you accept anything.

The point is that the Zarate camp were saying that. When you said that "some" were saying that, the "some" was Zarate's camp. Had you just said that in the first place, I'd have left it at the point that that source isn't exactly neutral (far from it). But you said that "some" say it, I asked you who, and you just went on and on and on with quotes from Zarate's brother.

Posted: **30 Dec 2012, 19:12**

I wonder why they fought when they were so sure they were being wronged. I'd be more concerned with the judges in the Pintor fight. Gomez whipped his ass.

Posted: **31 Dec 2012, 12:28**

I was being sarcastic, Gomez was just too much for him.

BoxRec

Zarate vs. Gomez

Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez

Re: Zarate vs. Gomez