BoxRec

During relative primes, I pick Holmes. Holmes just seemed like an overall stronger, more skillful guy. Holmes jab is a punch, Ali's jab is a flick. Comparable speed.

i have always said and will continue to say holmes is the best heavyweight
in history

I think this would be very close, I would favour Holmes over Ali of 74, but not over Ali of 66/67.
Maybe worthy of another topic, but I also wonder how much Holmes benefited from learning his trade during arguably the strongest era in the division. I have no doubt that sparring Ali (and Frazier?) gave Holmes the best education a fighter can have, not to mention I suspect that he had Ali figured tactically from sparring with him.
I do not for one second believe that this should detract from Holmes' standing, but might be worth taking into account in a hypothetical H2H with Ali.
Like anyone else, Holmes the fighter is the product of his training and development and it's natural that he moved like Ali at times. Watching Howard Cosell accuse Larry of trying to imitate Ali time and again is really infuriating.

Glad to see my opinion of Holmes given serius consideration and not being blinded by the Ali PR machine.

HOLMES!!!!!!!!

In a close fight I think Holmes takes this one

Since Holmes has the advantage of "learning from the master" it does affect the odds.

However if I take that out of the equation, and simply think prime vs prime, I still think Ali is likely to be able to get under his skin, take his focus off the prize and out point Holmes. Ring generalship, and footspeed are the difference IMHO.

BoxBuzz wrote:Since Holmes has the advantage of "learning from the master" it does affect the odds.

However if I take that out of the equation, and simply think prime vs prime, I still think Ali is likely to be able to get under his skin, take his focus off the prize and out point Holmes. Ring generalship, and footspeed are the difference IMHO.

Agree with this.

Prime Ali probably was too quick n moved to much for Holmes imo

Prime Ali has too much movement and footspeed for Holmes. It wouldn't be a complete route, but it would never be in doubt either.

Holmes superior jab would negate much of the foot speed.

If there is one fight that would go the distance no matter how many rounds it was scheduled for, this is it. Prime vs. prime I'd go for Ali as I think he was just plain better than Homes but post-prime (say 5 years), I'd go with Homes. Larry was better defensively when some of the speed and reflexes were gone and he also kept some power post-prime.

Holmes. Couldn't, wouldn't, be psyched out or get frustrated with Ali. Even at his best, Ali was vulnerable to counter punches, just no one was around with the fortitude and ability to capitalize on it. Holmes had a superior jab than Ali and was just as conditioned and tough. Even if Ali won the fight it would be by the narrowest of margins.

Seamus wrote:Prime Ali has too much movement and footspeed for Holmes. It wouldn't be a complete route, but it would never be in doubt either.

You need ot go to youtube and watch some of larry's fights. He had the blinding speed and some actual power to back it up.

Interesting comments by shavers concerning Larry's movement, speed and comparison to ali.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-4lKEtf_3I

I gotta go with Holmes he was a tough sob, stubborn as and smart man in the ring with the balls to go, So many times ive said my opinion of Holmes being better then Ali and being told im crazy, but its just that popular opinion isn't always based on facts or even a fair look at the fighters, Ali greatness is propaganda and he got most people to eat it cause he said it about himself.

jehu wrote:I gotta go with Holmes he was a tough sob, stubborn as and smart man in the ring with the balls to go, So many times ive said my opinion of Holmes being better then Ali and being told im crazy, but its just that popular opinion isn't always based on facts or even a fair look at the fighters, Ali greatness is propaganda and he got most people to eat it cause he said it about himself.

I'm certainly no Ali-fanboy but he fought and beat far far better opposition than Holmes did. Larry was also susceptible to the right cross and Ali sure could throw that punch. Ali himself was more prone to eat the left hook which was never Larry's best punch. When looking at how Holmes struggled with Williams, where he was clearly out jabbed, it's hard to think that Ali wouldn't give him a lot of problems.

I've watched plenty of both, and I don't think Holmes' hand speed (or anyone else's) is the equal of Ali. I agree that it would be a very tough match, and that Ali had trouble with counterpunchers, but pre-Vietnam Ali was too rapid for anyone, IMO.

Ali's incredible speeds lends itself to bamboozle technical boxers like Larry Holmes. And the same could be said for the likes of Jersey Joe Walcott and Floyd Patterson.

Those types of fighters wouldn't have had much success against Muhammad. So with that in mind my prediction is:
A resounding and conclusive unanimous Decision for Muhammad Ali

Well that's how I see it anyway.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Holmes superior jab would negate much of the foot speed.

Not if Larry couldn't catch him, which I think it quite probable. Ali's speed would allow him to dictate the fight and engage when he wanted to.

How the hell would quote "Larrys superior jab negate the footspeed"

Clearly said by someone who has never been in the ring.

Superior footspeed of the kind Ali had will always enable him to get away from any kind of jab and when one also considers Ali himself in his prime had a tremendous jab (and more than just a flicker as some state) than you have to conclude holmes would be following all night and lunging and Ali even off his prime in 1974 could really counter a lunging jab (see Zaire).

I dont see this anywhere as near as people say. I think this would be a style Ali would handle easily as basically Holmes was a poor mans Ali or a seventies Ali minus the rope a dope and power and with a better defence.

mugabi wrote:How the hell would quote "Larrys superior jab negate the footspeed"

Clearly said by someone who has never been in the ring.

Superior footspeed of the kind Ali had will always enable him to get away from any kind of jab and when one also considers Ali himself in his prime had a tremendous jab

Agreed... Larry's jab would not be effective if there was no-one there for it to land. I can see Ali moving around that thrusting jab all night long...

Ali didn't become one of the greatest without knowing how to avoid a jab.

Crease wrote:
Ali didn't become one of the greatest without knowing how to avoid a jab.

so, how come Ken Norton managed to hit him with about 40% of the jabs he threw over 39 rounds???????

hhaehre wrote: When looking at how Ali struggled with Norton, where he was clearly out jabbed, it's hard to think that Holmes wouldn't give him a lot of problems.

fixed, and you're welcome

for the record i concur with several posters' comments above. Larry's superior jab, better fundamentals, and at least equal ring intelligence (i suspect Holmes' ring IQ to be higher, myself) would at the very least give Ali hell peak for peak

and if we're talking past-peak vs past-peak Holmes wins 2 out of 3 IMO

Counter-puncher wrote:

Crease wrote:
Ali didn't become one of the greatest without knowing how to avoid a jab.

so, how come Ken Norton managed to hit him with about 40% of the jabs he threw over 39 rounds???????

That was hardly a prime Ali. The fleet footed dancer who could move for 15 rounds wasn't really there by the time of the first Norton fight, still less the last. If it's prime Holmes against '73 Ali, he's going to give him a really hard time. If it's the '76 Ali of the last Norton fight, Prime Holmes wins, no question. I had assumed this was prime for prime, so '66, or '67, and in that fight, Ali isn't going to get hit much. It's still a hard fight, but I think he's winning 8 out of 10.