BoxRec

Ali didn't duck anyone, but it seems that his first reign was cherry-picked guys. What ya think?

While the opposition was not great I find it hard to say they were cherry picked. The question is; who could he have fought in their place? Jones in a rematch? Leotis Martin with a handful of fights? A past it Machen?

Il Duce wrote: Other 'first reign bouts' that were on the table,
* Floyd Patterson II
* Karl Mildenberger II
* Amos Lincoln
* Oscar Bonavena
* Dick Tiger (Light-Heavyweight Champion)
* Thad Spencer

Perhaps if he hadn't lost over 3 years of his career some of those contests may have happened.

Outside of Brian London, I dont know how the first incarnation of Muhammad Ali was a cherry picker unless you want to criticize his opposition when he was developing as a professional from his debut to the Liston fight. It's the second incarnation of Ali who did alot of cherry picking.

Fireball wrote:Ali didn't duck anyone, but it seems that his first reign was cherry-picked guys. What ya think?

I think your statement makes no sense.

I have no problem with Ali's opposition, at any stage of his career.

Il Duce wrote:Following Mr. Ali's (KO 7) over Zora Folley (March 22, 1967),

Jim Murray (Los Angeles Sportswriter) put together the following scenario for Mr. Ali's next opponents,
using a 'Formula of 6-to-8 weeks' before each Title Defense.

May 5, 1967..............Floyd Patterson II
June 27, 1967............Thad Spencer
August 19, 1967........Karl Mildenberger II
October 8, 1967.........Oscar Bonavena
December 2, 1967......Dick Tiger (Light-Heavyweight Champion)

This would have given Muhammad Ali an incredible run '7' Title Defenses in 1967,
including Ernie Terrell (February 6) and Zora Folley (March 22).

This is something that Muhammad Ali had discussed, '7 in 67'.

that is one hell of a schedule for anyone

Yeah, 168 pound Tiger would have made for a legitimate challenger for Gaseous Cassius.

Giancarlo wrote:

Fireball wrote:Ali didn't duck anyone, but it seems that his first reign was cherry-picked guys. What ya think?

I think your statement makes no sense.

Work on it, It'll come to you eventually.

Fireball wrote:Ali didn't duck anyone, but it seems that his first reign was cherry-picked guys. What ya think?

Who was deserving that he didn't fight? He fought the best challengers available . . .Liston, Patterson, Terrell (who was beating everyone else at the time), Folley, Chuvalo . . .this is a guy who came back from a 3 year layoff to fight Jerry Quarry!! Cherry-picked, what a crock . . .

Ali ducked Dick Tiger. Sorry, Ali fans, that’s the truth.

He also dicked Duck Tiger, but that’s a different forum.

Ezzard wrote:Ali ducked Dick Tiger. Sorry, Ali fans, that’s the truth.

He also dicked Duck Tiger, but that’s a different forum.

Fireball wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

Fireball wrote:Ali didn't duck anyone, but it seems that his first reign was cherry-picked guys. What ya think?

I think your statement makes no sense.

Work on it, It'll come to you eventually.

Eventually or quite possibly never.

The guy is dumber than a box of rocks.

Fireball wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

Fireball wrote:Ali didn't duck anyone, but it seems that his first reign was cherry-picked guys. What ya think?

I think your statement makes no sense.

Work on it, It'll come to you eventually.

Could it be that it only makes sense if one's head is firmly located up one's posterior?

Ali has the most impenetrable list of opponents for the bullshit that the internet brings. When Eddie Machen is the biggest name you can throw at him, you lose.

Nancy wrote: Eventually or quite possibly never.

The guy is dumber than a box of rocks.

Nancy, you're home!

All we need now is that other simpleton, Goodnight_Irene, to come crawling back.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Ali has the most impenetrable list of opponents for the bullshit that the internet brings. When Eddie Machen is the biggest name you can throw at him, you lose.

Definitely I can't believe anyone is suggesting that Machen would've beaten him.

Il Duce wrote:Gilgamesh,,,,,,

You're not calling Mario Stampinato a 'liar'.

I'd take that bet of either Eddie Machen or Harold Johnson beating Cassius Clay in late-1962 or early-1963.

But 1964 and after, was a different story...........

We're talking about one round in a gym. That doesn't mean that he would beat Ali in a fight. I don't doubt that he would've been a stiff test for him at the stage of his career you mention.

HomicideHenry wrote:Outside of Brian London, I dont know how the first incarnation of Muhammad Ali was a cherry picker unless you want to criticize his opposition when he was developing as a professional from his debut to the Liston fight. It's the second incarnation of Ali who did alot of cherry picking.

Great assessment. In his 2nd "incarnation", he fought Frazier (3x)Norton (3X),Foreman, Quarry (2x),Bonavena, Young,Lyle,Shavers, Bugner (2x), Ellis, Patterson, Mathis, Chuvalo. No one else fought nearly all of these wimps.

However, he never did take on Boone Kirkman, did he?

Ambling Alp II wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Outside of Brian London, I dont know how the first incarnation of Muhammad Ali was a cherry picker unless you want to criticize his opposition when he was developing as a professional from his debut to the Liston fight. It's the second incarnation of Ali who did alot of cherry picking.

Great assessment. In his 2nd "incarnation", he fought Frazier (3x)Norton (3X),Foreman, Quarry (2x),Bonavena, Young,Lyle,Shavers, Bugner (2x), Ellis, Patterson, Mathis, Chuvalo. No one else fought nearly all of these wimps.

However, he never did take on Boone Kirkman, did he?

Come on, Alp...none of those gusy were peak... If Ali really was all that then why didn't he fight Tyson?

I have to agree, Ali cherry picked his way all the way through the golden age of heavyweight boxing, right up to the Klitchenkos... I mean its just outrageous the way hes ducked Vitali and Wlad!....

Sonny Liston's birth certificate show's he was actually 85 when they first fought...so you can't really count that either...

Il Duce wrote:During the 'First Reign',

Besides Sonny Liston, every opponent Cassius Clay fought had either been 'brutally' knocked out in a
previous bout, or suffered a few one-sided beatings.

After Sonny Liston, Ernie Terrell was the 'Best of the Bunch'.

That is mostly true because back then contenders still actually fought each other frequently. They also had hard fights in their first years coming up against fellow prospects and experienced veterans. Not every prospect automatically started off 15-0 back then.

With the exception of London, these were all good fighters and contenders for long periods of time in their careers. Even London was good enough to win the British title and lasted until the 11th round against Patterson.

Ambling Alp II wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:Outside of Brian London, I dont know how the first incarnation of Muhammad Ali was a cherry picker unless you want to criticize his opposition when he was developing as a professional from his debut to the Liston fight. It's the second incarnation of Ali who did alot of cherry picking.

Great assessment. In his 2nd "incarnation", he fought Frazier (3x)Norton (3X),Foreman, Quarry (2x),Bonavena, Young,Lyle,Shavers, Bugner (2x), Ellis, Patterson, Mathis, Chuvalo. No one else fought nearly all of these wimps.

However, he never did take on Boone Kirkman, did he?

You're also blatantly disregarding the fact Ali fought the likes of Jean Pierre Coopman, Jurgen Blin, Mac Foster (who by that time was considered a hype job after Quarry flattened him), Alfredo Evangelista, Jimmy Young (who at the time was not on the radar), Chuck Wepner (whose #8 ranking was a gift at best), Al Lewis (who had been in prison for many years), etc.

As far as Patterson, he was much older and slower than he was the first time they fought. IN the last Frazier fight, both men were passed it. Ellis was Ali's sparring partner, so does that really amount to anything? Mathis was good but was one of those guys who you never could bet on to be in tip top shape. Chuvalo, same with Patterson, was older and slower than the first time. Quarry wasn't mentally in the fight because his brother was almost killed against Foster earlier in the card, so Ali wasn't exactly facing a willing participant.

The only legit guys by your list, who were tip top shape and nothing was wrong with them, was Lyle (who was beating Ali on the scorecards before that premature stoppage), Shavers, Bonavena, and Norton who despite what the record books says beat Ali twice, and Foreman. Still, I must admit, on paper nobody has ever had that much success at heavyweight against such quality opposition.