BoxRec

Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis

Everyone at their peak. What happens? Does Ezzard win any of these?

Stop trying to make a point.

Head to head he probably don't stack up so well in this particular group of pugilistic citizenry.

However, vs the entire body of the general boxing population, he does better than his majority of likely losses to these fighters might illustrate.

Your always trying to make sense out of things. Sometimes a top 10 HW is just a top 10 HW.

I like his chances against Marciano & Dempsey. He'd give Ali & Holmes a lot of issues too.

....ok....I'll answer. Just Joe, the only guy he beats here is Joe. But he beats him so bad, the rest of them get hurt.

.....thanks for adding Holmes.....in all honesty, I agree.

Odd as hell though aint it? Odd combination of the "who's" he would be most competitive with.

It's an obviously loaded question considering Charles best was at Light Heavy. But there is no way in hell he fights them all without a win. He's quite clearly the greatest fighter of that group.

BoxBuzz wrote:Stop trying to make a point.

Head to head he probably don't stack up so well in this particular group of pugilistic citizenry.

However, vs the entire body of the general boxing population, he does better than his majority of likely losses to these fighters might illustrate.

Your always trying to make sense out of things. Sometimes a top 10 HW is just a top 10 HW.

I used to shoot pool against a guy who who was fairly high up on the local food chain.

He always used to tell me he was a World Champion....on the third level.

He made absolutely no sense to all of us regulars and most probably wound up in a nuthouse, but somehow I think you and him would relate.

Yep I know that guy. He's not lyin. He's the champ.

3rd level.

Special status.

BoxBuzz wrote:Yep I know that guy. He's not lyin. He's the champ.

3rd level.

Special status.

Your both in the same ward, right?

Tell old Roger hello for me.

yancey wrote:Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis

Everyone at their peak. What happens? Does Ezzard win any of these?

Charles had the speed and the ability to of given anyone of those guys problems. I fancy his chances against Frazier, Louis, Liston, Marciano and Tyson. But I think Foreman and Lewis were just too big for him to of handled. Holmes would have been a great fight, a 50/50 proposition if there ever was one, at least in my mind. Ali would have been competitive, with Ali pulling off the decision.

yancey wrote:Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis

Everyone at their peak. What happens? Does Ezzard win any of these?

He beats Dempsey like a carpet, anytime. He can give all of them a good fight especially Tyson. Very tough company for a light heavyweight.

I'd actually give him a better chance vs Lewis than Dempsey or Marciano . . the latter two's speed and all-out aggression would wear Charles out. Lewis on the other hand would fight at the pace Charles wanted to, and a peak Ezzard was more tricky, a sharper puncher, and had better stamina than a 37 year old Evander who basically fought Lewis to a draw in their rematch.

dempseyfire wrote:I'd actually give him a better chance vs Lewis than Dempsey or Marciano . . the latter two's speed and all-out aggression would wear Charles out. Lewis on the other hand would fight at the pace Charles wanted to, and a peak Ezzard was more tricky, a sharper puncher, and had better stamina than a 37 year old Evander who basically fought Lewis to a draw in their rematch.

Charles would lose to all of the opponents listed. His best chance would be against Marciano.

He was a great, great fighter, but he was definitely not a Top 10 heavyweight of all-time.

Plenty of guys on that list lost to Heavyweights that weren't in the top 10. I rate Ezzard higher than Dempsey or Tyson, though it's certainly arguable.

yancey wrote:Charles would lose to all of the opponents listed. His best chance would be against Marciano.

He was a great, great fighter, but he was definitely not a Top 10 heavyweight of all-time.

Yancey, I'm surprised to find that you are wrong concerning the definitive nature of this assertion.

I suggest you retract this when you can find the time.

I think Ezzard Charles could outbox Dempsey, Dempsey would obviously be a lot to deal with early in the fight.

Charles damn near did beat Marciano, it's not hard to see him being slightly more fortunate and getting the Win.

I think the rest would get the better of him, but I could see him giving the boxer's Ali, Holmes and Frazier a hard time. He'd give Frazier a hard time early before Joe starting coming on strong late in the bout, probably stopping Charles around the 11th.

gilgamesh wrote:I think Ezzard Charles could outbox Dempsey, Dempsey would obviously be a lot to deal with early in the fight.

Charles damn near did beat Marciano, it's not hard to see him being slightly more fortunate and getting the Win.

I think the rest would get the better of him, but I could see him giving the boxer's Ali, Holmes and Frazier a hard time. He'd give Frazier a hard time early before Joe starting coming on strong late in the bout, probably stopping Charles around the 11th.

Which match? The first match wasn't even close, Marciano won that unaminously with room to spare. The rematch was the only time Marciano got in any trouble, and that was cus Charles' elbow busted his nose.

HomicideHenry wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:I think Ezzard Charles could outbox Dempsey, Dempsey would obviously be a lot to deal with early in the fight.

Charles damn near did beat Marciano, it's not hard to see him being slightly more fortunate and getting the Win.

I think the rest would get the better of him, but I could see him giving the boxer's Ali, Holmes and Frazier a hard time. He'd give Frazier a hard time early before Joe starting coming on strong late in the bout, probably stopping Charles around the 11th.

Which match? The first match wasn't even close, Marciano won that unaminously with room to spare. The rematch was the only time Marciano got in any trouble, and that was cus Charles' elbow busted his nose.

That's what I'm talking about, Marciano's nose was busted pretty severely to the point that they were supposedly going to stop the fight if he couldn't stop Charles. It's not unreasonable to think on his best night Charles could've done similar damage and survived Marciano's charge to get a cuts stoppage. I think Rocky would beat Charles more often than not mind you, I just think Ezzard Charles at his peak would be a handful for Marciano...more so than he was when they met.

gilgamesh wrote: That's what I'm talking about, Marciano's nose was busted pretty severely to the point that they were supposedly going to stop the fight if he couldn't stop Charles. It's not unreasonable to think on his best night Charles could've done similar damage and survived Marciano's charge to get a cuts stoppage. I think Rocky would beat Charles more often than not mind you, I just think Ezzard Charles at his peak would be a handful for Marciano...more so than he was when they met.

At Charles' peak, he would have given ANY heavyweight trouble. That I agree with you on. He was just a shade slower than Muhammad Ali, but was a better all-around fighter than Ali. And before I get my head chewed off after saying that let me explain; Ali was not a good infighter, Charles was. Ali was rather unorthodox for a heavyweight, escaping shots by going on his bicycle and leaning away, rather than slipping, ducking, weaving, etc. Charles on the other hand, was such the tactician, by the book boxer, he could escape from shots without going on his bicycle. Ali's primary weapon was his jab, followed by lightning fast combinations that could cut; Charles had a more complete arsenal, and even as an older, slower heavyweight he could still cut opponents up as evident in the second Marciano fight. Charles was severely underated as a heavyweight; its a shame alot of people remember him for getting caught by Jersey Joe Walcott in the 7th round, without considering when you fight someone as often as Charles did against Walcott, you happen to get odd results now and then. If Ali's speed was not as it was at his peak, I dare say that I think he may of got nowhere as far as he did; but then again, Ali was a great at adapting, as evident in his return in the mid 1970s.

On the flipside, however, I think Marciano would have been trouble for any boxer/tactician. Why? Conditioning, work rate, and an unwavering heart. No one, not since the days of Jeffries and fighters of the early 20th and 19th centuries, had the kind of conditioning Marciano had, and I have seldom seen heavyweights match or out do Marciano in the sheer volume category, averaging 80-110 punches a round. He simply worn guys out and never got tired. And if you hurt him, or embarassed him, he fought even harder. A simple boxer/tactician would have to bring their A+ game with them to not only beat Marciano, but to do it convincingly. Very few men can I name, could do that. That is a job for both Holmes and Ali, the rest I would give Marciano a fair shot at beating. The funny thing with Marciano is that everyone he fought, should have beaten him, but they didn't. Every man he boxed either outweighed him, or was taller than him, and for a long time everyone was a far better boxer than he was---- it wasnt until he defeated Louis, did Marciano start employing the bobbing and weaving tactics into his overall skill set. By the time he retired, skill wise, he was at his best. Prior to Louis he was a stand up brawler, who bulled men into the ropes and was clumsy, etc. Even at that, he could not be denied.

charles beats none of the above. a very great fighter he was, arguably "greater" than some of these guys and certainly a better tech fighter than a few. but top technical fighters often get busted up by hard hitters or fierce pressure guys, especially in the heavier divisions. maybe he beats dempsey...maybe

there has recently been a little wave of over-rating charles on this site...tread carefully

Which fighters were "definitively" greater than him? I don't see a case for any of them, so this isn't sarcastic. I'm quite intrigued.

misterpunch wrote:charles beats none of the above. a very great fighter he was, arguably "greater" than some of these guys and certainly a better tech fighter than a few. but top technical fighters often get busted up by hard hitters or fierce pressure guys, especially in the heavier divisions. maybe he beats dempsey...maybe

there has recently been a little wave of over-rating charles on this site...tread carefully

Very much agree with this viewpoint.

The only difference is that I think Charles stands a better chance against Marciano than he would against Dempsey.

btw, Dempsey vs Charles would have been a very interesting classic matchup, along the sames lines of the FOTC.

yancey wrote:Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis

Everyone at their peak. What happens? Does Ezzard win any of these?

Prime for prime, I think he runs Joe Louis close and maybe even edges him on points.

Marciano wins on points.

Liston struggles with him as well, but would win a close decision.

Ali dominates him.

He has a style that suits Frazier very well and I think Joe wins on points or might even stop him late rounds

I would fancy him to upset Foreman on points. Foreman dominates early, but Ezzard would whether the storm and take a points decision.

Holmes wins a wide points decision.

Tyson would need to be at his absolute best, or he would struggle. While he's still in love with the game, listening to Kevin Rooney and training properly, he lands too hard and often and wins on points with Ezzards face a bloody mess. If it's Tyson from the first Bruno fight onwards he loses a painful and wide decision.

Lewis on points, his style is a nightmare for Charles, as is Bowe's and Vitali's.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

yancey wrote:Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Lennox Lewis

Everyone at their peak. What happens? Does Ezzard win any of these?

Prime for prime, I think he runs Joe Louis close and maybe even edges him on points.

Marciano wins on points.

Liston struggles with him as well, but would win a close decision.

Ali dominates him.

He has a style that suits Frazier very well and I think Joe wins on points or might even stop him late rounds

I would fancy him to upset Foreman on points. Foreman dominates early, but Ezzard would whether the storm and take a points decision.

Holmes wins a wide points decision.

Tyson would need to be at his absolute best, or he would struggle. While he's still in love with the game, listening to Kevin Rooney and training properly, he lands too hard and often and wins on points with Ezzards face a bloody mess. If it's Tyson from the first Bruno fight onwards he loses a painful and wide decision.

Lewis on points, his style is a nightmare for Charles, as is Bowe's and Vitali's.

Louis closed Ezzard's eye and had him hurt at one point during their rematch, in which Louis was soft and slow and coming off a very long layoff. Hard to see any rational argument for a peak Louis not knocking Charles out.

Think Ezzard's ability at HW is getting slightly over-rated here. He was a great HW but a real tour de force at 175. I see people saying he could beat Dempsey, and forgetting that the ordinary pressure puncher Pat Valentino landed some good shots on Charles and gave Ezzard a competitive fight until the KO, and that was during Ezzard's "heavyweight peak." Also was beaten by the hard-hitting pressure fighter Elmer Ray, who was not on Dempsey's level (and I know some said it was a bad decision but a subjective overview of the write-ups show it was a fight that could have gone either way fairly).
Ezzard was a tremendous talent but wouldn't have the physical strength to ward off a Dempsey or Foreman. Lone reason I give him a chance vs Lennox is that Lewis was much more safety-orientated and wouldn't be putting tons of pressure on Charles, allowing Ezzard to steal rounds with his greater sharp-shooting/counter-punching.