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minter vs hagler

Posted: 10 Apr 2004, 08:37
by revporl
I remember watching the Hagler/Minter bout as a kid and the horrendous riot afterwards which prevented the fighters from leaving the ring for ages. Someone told me recently something I really hope isn't true about Minter, which is that before the fight he made a racist comment along the lines of him not wanting to lose his title to black guy, and also that Minter was involved in the 80's national front, a forerunner of the BNP which is stirring up a lot of racial tension in the UK these days. Is this true? Has anyone any archieve material about this?

Re: minter vs hagler

Posted: 10 Apr 2004, 09:58
by KOJOE90
revporl wrote:I remember watching the Hagler/Minter bout as a kid and the horrendous riot afterwards which prevented the fighters from leaving the ring for ages. Someone told me recently something I really hope isn't true about Minter, which is that before the fight he made a racist comment along the lines of him not wanting to lose his title to black guy, and also that Minter was involved in the 80's national front, a forerunner of the BNP which is stirring up a lot of racial tension in the UK these days. Is this true? Has anyone any archieve material about this?
I to watched this fight as a kid. I've also heard the Minter quote of "I shall never lose my title to a black man". Which is at best a foolish thing to say, at worst a vile evil thing to say.

As far as I know Minter did indeed say the above quote in the run up for the fight. In that case he got the beating he deserved from the Marvelous One, A fighter Minter later stated he didn't want to fight as Hagler was such a formidable fighter.

I think Minter has apologied for his foolish quote.

I've never heard Minter being connected to The National Front, BNP or Combat 18 or anyother right wing organisation.

Maybe one of the older posters will have more info on this subject.

Posted: 10 Apr 2004, 21:53
by crooked nose
In the States, I heard Minter said "I won't lose my title to any person." Also rumors of an appearance at a National Front rally. How much exaggeration, I don't know. Maybe Minter did nothing and he just got caught in the buzz around the fight. I couldn't understand why British fans were so emotional about that fight. Why back Minter so fiercely when it was obvious he was going down? A shame that Hagler's long-awaited title came amid a barrage of beer bottles. But I have always been in awe of Hagler's poise in the face of such hostility. He simply went to work and carved up Minter in less than nine minutes.

Posted: 11 Apr 2004, 05:19
by KOJOE90
crooked nose wrote:But I have always been in awe of Hagler's poise in the face of such hostility. He simply went to work and carved up Minter in less than nine minutes.
Very true, Hagler is a class act.

Posted: 11 Apr 2004, 07:28
by revporl
When I was told about Minters comments and alleged right wing involvement, part of the story involved the riot afterwards being in part orchestrated by NF activists. Once again, I'm not sure how true any of this is and I really hope it isn't, which is why I'm pitching it to the forum, thanks for your replies.

Posted: 11 Apr 2004, 10:30
by KOJOE90
revporl wrote:When I was told about Minters comments and alleged right wing involvement, part of the story involved the riot afterwards being in part orchestrated by NF activists. Once again, I'm not sure how true any of this is and I really hope it isn't, which is why I'm pitching it to the forum, thanks for your replies.
Minter may or may not have had some sort of predudice views, but I've never read or heard of any direct link with the riot and Minter himself.

Posted: 12 Apr 2004, 14:29
by crooked nose
I looked up the Oct. 6, 1980 Sports Illustrated story on this fight. Author Clive Gammon writes that "the champion (Minter) had announced in early September, 'I am not letting any black man take the title from me.'" Gammon also writes that Minter claimed Hagler refused to shake his hand when the two were introduced prior to Hagler's bout with Antuofermo the previous November. Kevin Finnegan told a similar story, adding that Hagler had said, "I don't touch white flesh."
Gammon says Minter amended his statement to "thatblack man", and Hagler said he never shook hands with a potential opponent of any color.
In addition, Welsh bantamweight Johnny Owen lay dying in hospital at that very time. Reports of his bout in LA said the injured fighter had been pelted with beers as he was carried from the ring. This certainly added to the ugly atmosphere, which Gammon says was further inflamed by promoter Mickey Duff's chauvinistic appeals.
So, there you have it. Not the first or last time a fight has been sold with race-baiting. Just a year and a half later we witnessed Holmes-Cooney, featuring Dennis "America Needs You" Rappaport.

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 08:41
by KOJOE90
crooked nose wrote: Kevin Finnegan told a similar story, adding that Hagler had said, "I don't touch white flesh."
Gammon says Minter amended his statement to "thatblack man", and Hagler said he never shook hands with a potential opponent of any color.
I would be very shocked if Hagler indeed said "I don't touch white flesh." as we both know his two cornermen were white.

However I can believe that Hagler would refuse to shake hands with any potential opponent regardless of colour. I remember reading around the time of the Hagler Leonard fight, that Hagler was at some function with Goody an Pat and Hearns walked into the room. Hagler said to his companions "Who invited that M@ther F@@@er", His companions said "Calmdown Marvin, you beat him, the fights over". Hagler said "The hell it is, he tried to take my title".

However I've read in recent years that Hagler and Hearns now get on very well together and have the upmost respect for each other as men and fighters.

Hagler was quoted saying something along the lines of "I love Tommy, he's a great guy and a total class act".

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 08:47
by knockout artist
Hagler has mellowed so much, he's nothing like the MMH of old.

Still a great guy and a great champion.

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 08:52
by KOJOE90
knockout artist wrote:Hagler has mellowed so much, he's nothing like the MMH of old.

Still a great guy and a great champion.
I heard that the reason that he started to shave his head which I assume was around 1976/75 was to "remind him of the hard times".

Many years ago I found a old copy of The Ring at a friends house it had a feature on Middleweight prospects and it has a picture of a young Hagler with a full head of hair!

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 10:14
by bennie
I once saw Duran offer his hand to Hagler at the press conference to announce their fight, but Hagler just gave the thumbs up and refused to shake. Duran shrugged, but after the fight he in turn refused to shake.

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 11:16
by KOJOE90
bollocks wrote:
KOJOE90 wrote:
knockout artist wrote:Hagler has mellowed so much, he's nothing like the MMH of old.

Still a great guy and a great champion.
I heard that the reason that he started to shave his head which I assume was around 1976/75 was to "remind him of the hard times".

Many years ago I found a old copy of The Ring at a friends house it had a feature on Middleweight prospects and it has a picture of a young Hagler with a full head of hair!
Hagler with hair :o :o

Here's a recent write up


By Anthony Evans: With his intimidating stare, body seemingly composed of twisted steel and head shaved to a black bullet finish Marvelous Marvin Hagler was a terror in the ring. Today, nearing age 50, the former Undisputed Middleweight Champion and Hall of Famer is a contented ambassador for the sport.

Even though he is still very much involved with the sport through autograph sessions and various work such as TV punditry, Marvelous Marvin Hagler still misses the ring.

"I still train every day," he began. "But I have to stay out of boxing gyms. I know if I get near that smell, that sweat, that dirty stink of a boxing gymnasium I'll want to get back into it. I'm happy to do road work and jump rope and other exercises - but I don't trust myself to visit gyms or hit the bags."

However, the 80s icon is still keening interested in the fight game, especially his old division, which was unified in 2001 for the first time since Hagler's era by Bernard Hopkins. Some believed the wins over WBC champ Keith Holmes and WBA title-holder Felix Trinidad confirmed Hopkins's greatness, however, the Philadelphian warrior has yet to convince the last great middleweight.

While Hagler is modest enough not to separate himself from 160lbs legends like Carlos Monzon and Sugar Ray Robinson, he does make a distinction between himself and the current pretender. Hagler believes Hopkins isn't in that class.

At least, not yet; as the icon explained to SecondsOut: "What you have to understand is that I was the undisputed champion throughout my career as middleweight champion while Hopkins was only the WBC champion until quite recently (2001) in his career. So I don't understand how he claims to have beaten my record (12 successful defences) and Carlos Monzon's record (14 successful defences) for the most defences of the middleweight title."

Hagler continued: "I defended my title as undisputed champion 13 times (including controversial loss to Ray Leonard), now, for Bernard Hopkins to break any records he has to defend his undisputed middleweight title 13, 14, 15 times. But he hasn't done that - for years and years he was just the champion of one organisation. He also hasn't fought the level of opponents I did in my era."

Yet the icon then added: "I'm not taking anything away from Hopkins, he's a terrific fighter. He had to claw his way up the rankings and he's brought excitement back to my old division. I'm very happy for him. He represents the line of great fighters in the middleweight division very well and he has achieved a lot. But, for me, Carlos Monzon's record for the most middleweight title defences stands and after that my record of title defences stands."

Boxing has never been a sport for statistics, and even the most straightforward of comparisons are dangerous. Monzon, like Hopkins, also defended something less than the unified world middleweight title from 1974 to 1976 when the WBC withdrew recognition of the Argentinean and so there is a case for picking Hagler as the most successful 160lbs champion of all time.

Naturally, the Marvelous One liked the sound of that and joked: "Of course, if I was allowed to become champion when I should have become champion (Hagler was jobbed out in a so-called draw against Vito Antuofermo in 1979) then I believe I would have set a record for title defences that would have stood for a loooooong time!"

The Newark, New Jersey born legend also pointed out that he would have been within striking distance of Monzon's record if he'd have been given the decision against Leonard. Hagler's contentious 12 round points defeat to nemesis Leonard has divided two generations of fight fans and - without a trace of weariness for what must be an almost daily subject of discussion - the former Undisputed Middleweight Champion was very open about his feelings towards his old nemesis.

"As a fighter, I respect him very much, very much. But as a man, I don't really respect him, not as a person. He ran like a rabbit all night and tried to steal the fight by using a few flashy tricks here and there rather than winning the three minutes of each round, which I feel I did.

"There's no question in my mind that I won that fight - there's never been any question in my mind that I won that fight. That's how I feel. Recently during a HBO programme he basically admitted to he lost that fight, which was good of him, but he never wanted anything to do with me after the quiet beating I gave him. Anyway, many, many fans believe I won the fight with Ray and - if anything - the majority of people out there think I won it and that is something important. So I let all that go - that was yesterday. I'm happy with my achievements in life."

After the controversial Las Vegas decision, Hagler gave the Sugarman a one-year deadline to agree to the rematch but Leonard insisted the bout was a one-off and he had retired forever. As good as his word, the Marvelous One - who had no interest in any other opponent - quit the sport (although Sugar Ray was back in the ring the following year and, in fact, had his final bout in 1997 v Hector Camacho Senior).

Now aged 50, Hagler believes everything worked out for the best.

He said: "Now, years later, I realise losing that controversial decision could have been one of the best things to happen to me. If I'd have been given the decision I would almost certainly have continued boxing and (chased) Carlos Monzon's record (the most defences of the middleweight title). That would have taken another year and I would have kept going after my prime, and that would have been sad because after 65 fights and 14 years as a professional it was time to bow out; and a lot of times that 'one last fight' is a huge mistake.

"So, in some ways, I am thankful I lost the decision to Ray Leonard in Las Vegas."

Hagler still trains every day and - his head still shaved to a bullet shine - looks at least a decade younger than his 50 years. Now living in Italy with his wife, the legendary fight figure is breaking into acting, with four films already to his credit. It is difficult, Hagler said of his second career.

"It is a lot like boxing, you have to train, put your heart and soul into it. You can't fake a lack of preparation - you will be found out just like in the ring. But it is also like boxing in the sense just need just in big shot - landing a big role is like landing a title shot - it changes your career overnight. Until then you sit and wait. But acting is a new challenge, right now I'm doing six rounds and I'm hoping to move up to eight, ten and then championship roles. Of course, no-one hits you went you make mistakes in acting!

Content and wealthy, Hagler is a boxing success story. Some estimate he earned around $20million as a fighter and, 16 years after his final bout, he continues to make a very comfortable income just by being Marvelous Marvin Hagler. The night before this interview (conducted in April of 2003), he had completed an after-dinner speaking tour of Great Britain, which sold-out halls all over the country.

Mainly, people want to know about my fighters with Ray Leonard and Tommy Hearns, Hagler said of the fans he meets at these events. Of course, I enjoy talking about the Hearns fight because I won! No, really, I'm very proud of the fact so many fans (regard) that fight as the best of all time. There's been a lot of fights over the years, and for so many people to rate one of your fights as probably the very best, well, thank you.

The April 15, 1984 war was the pinnacle of the Marvelous One's career. "I have to say that was my favorite fight and not just because of the excitement, but also the fact I overcame a cut, poor refereeing (Richard Steele seemed to separate the two a little too often) and I took the best Tommy Hears could throw at me. I was so (worked up) for that fight I felt like a monster - I wanted him to get up so badly so I could knock him down again. The way I felt I would have beaten an army that night. Whenever I watch the tape of that fight I still get chills which remind me of the way I felt that night."

"The promoters called that fight 'War' and I went in there with that mentality. I wanted to win that fight desperately because I knew that victory would show the world, forever, that I was the best out there."

Somewhat surprisingly, the Marvelous One also ranks his defeat of Syrian Mustafa Hamsho alongside his greatest ever victories - purely because of the location of the bout.

He explained: "Fighting at Madison Square Garden (w rsf 3 October 1984) was another highlight. The Garden is the most beautiful building in the world, and I remember watching Ali v Frazier there and wondering whether I'd ever get to fight there. Just by fighting there you are somebody, it is very special to headline there. Just the other day someone told me his son had been to the Garden and saw my picture (MSG hangs pictures of all the luminaries to grace within its halls) there, which is a great honor."

Just then a nervous looking waiter approaches for an autograph saying, "I know I shouldn't do this, Mr Hagler, but I'm a huge fan..."

The ex-fighter gives him a Don King sized welcome, pulls out several picture cards and signs them to the waiter, the waiter's son and the waiter's nephew. The Champion told me he signs dozens of autographs each day, at the shopping mall, in restaurants, all over. I wondered whether it ever became intrusive, being a sporting celebrity 24-7.

He said no. "It is an everyday job, signing autographs and meeting people. I believe it is my asset in life that I enjoy meeting people so, no, I never get tired of talking with people. Even people who can't speak the same languages as me (English and Italian) still want to talk to me. Guys from all over come up to me in airports all the time and say: Hagler, Hagler, you - you - Hearns wow! (laughs) From the second I leave the house to the second I get in at night I'm always speaking with people who want to know about my fights. It is such an honor to still be able to excite people by something you did in the 1980s.

"The one thing that does bother me is merchandise which I never agreed to be made, that I don't get any money from. There are all sorts of things out there with my image that I never had any say on, some of them are so poorly made I'd never have given them permission to be made. It is not right that people can made money off fighters like that - we were the ones who gave up years of our lives to give our families a future. If you want to make a Marvelous Marvin product - great - but I want to be involved in it."

Any regrets? "No, even the fact that Ray never gave me the rematch doesn't matter anymore. I'm happy with the opportunities I had, the titles I won, I'm happy with my life and the way I think I'll be remembered."

Visit Hagler's official site at http://marvelousmarvin.com
Thanks for the article and link. 8)

Re: minter vs hagler

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 16:53
by jsc1973
KOJOE90 wrote:In that case he got the beating he deserved from the Marvelous One, A fighter Minter later stated he didn't want to fight as Hagler was such a formidable fighter.
Nobody wanted to fight Hagler in the years leading up to his title reign. Hagler had to basically clear out the middleweight division to force the titleholder to fight him, and then he beat Antuofermo and they ripped him off.

As I recall, Hagler himself said that he knew no one wanted him to have the belts, because once he had them, he wasn't giving them up.

He's right about Hopkins in one sense--to be up there with Hagler and Monzon, Hopkins needs to beat DLH and maybe a few of the other guys at 154 before he retires. You don't see any Morrade Hakkar's on Hagler's record.

Re: minter vs hagler

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 17:57
by Eric the Viking
jsc1973 wrote:He's right about Hopkins in one sense--to be up there with Hagler and Monzon, Hopkins needs to beat DLH and maybe a few of the other guys at 154 before he retires. You don't see any Morrade Hakkar's on Hagler's record.
The other reason I can't rank Hopkins as high as Hagler is the loss to Jones. Not a blowout by any means, but losing 8-4 to a one-handed guy (even if it is a rare talent like Jones, early in one's career) has to count against him. You could counterargue with Hagler's loss to Leonard - and I do believe Leonard deserved a close points win, because Hagler basically gave away the first four rounds - but that fight was very competitive, and like many I believe Hagler got the better of it in terms of actually landing meaningful punches. On the other hand, you could argue that Hagler losing to Leonard (a natural welter) after a 3-year layoff by Leonard should count against him at least as much as Hopkins losing to the similar-sized Jones (a natural middle/supermiddle who moved up to 168 immediately afterward). But Hagler's overall better competition breaks any ties, IMO.

Posted: 13 Apr 2004, 18:48
by MightyWarrior
Hagler is a different class from Hopkins, who can forget about ever getting ranked near Marv in the all time great middles.

Minter was a racist, the black man quote is correct. The story about him being seen at a NF rally was false though, just a story The Sun ran with before it was retracted.
Ex light middle champ Maurice Hope used to spar Minter and said he was defintely a racist.
The crowd who threw the bottles at Wembley were just your usual run of the mill football hooligans - the only fights they ever watched were Minter's, although to be honest, it was these type of "fans" who moved onto support Bruno a few years later. Yes he was black, but he was humble, so that made him alright in these moron's eyes.

Posted: 14 Apr 2004, 00:02
by crooked nose
Great article. Always good to hear that an ex-champ is well, happy and prosperous, especially one who came to mean so much to so many fight fans. Once you "adopt" a fighter, you follow them for life. Their post-boxing accomplishments become part of their record, adding or detracting from their stardom. You hope the qualities that made a guy great in the ring will help them in the "real world" too. Hagler was so intense, so single-minded that I really wondered if he could ever find contentment in a quiet life. But I think he has always been able to switch it on and off as needed. I remember seeing him spar before the first Hamsho fight. While he was skipping rope and shadow boxing, he looked right through the fans a few feet away as if we were invisible. Total focus. But as soon as the workout ended, he was relaxed and friendly and eager to mix.

Posted: 14 Apr 2004, 01:26
by zurdo
KOJOE90 wrote:
crooked nose wrote: Kevin Finnegan told a similar story, adding that Hagler had said, "I don't touch white flesh."
Gammon says Minter amended his statement to "thatblack man", and Hagler said he never shook hands with a potential opponent of any color.
I would be very shocked if Hagler indeed said "I don't touch white flesh." as we both know his two cornermen were white.

However I can believe that Hagler would refuse to shake hands with any potential opponent regardless of colour. I remember reading around the time of the Hagler Leonard fight, that Hagler was at some function with Goody an Pat and Hearns walked into the room. Hagler said to his companions "Who invited that M@ther F@@@er", His companions said "Calmdown Marvin, you beat him, the fights over". Hagler said "The hell it is, he tried to take my title".

However I've read in recent years that Hagler and Hearns now get on very well together and have the upmost respect for each other as men and fighters.

Hagler was quoted saying something along the lines of "I love Tommy, he's a great guy and a total class act".
That incident with Hearns might been nothing more than some gamesmanship twords a potential future Opponent
becase at the time..Even though Hagler had already beaten him once, Hearns was the
leading contender for Hagler's Title ...
Hagler Certainly wasn't above doing a little theatrics to promote a fight

Posted: 14 Apr 2004, 19:50
by Eric the Viking
Two small notes:

1) The interview with Hagler lists his fight with Hearns as taking place on April 15, 1984, but it actually took place in 1985. So we have to wait one more year from today (tomorrow, if you're east of the European mainland) for the 20th anniversary.

2) While looking at some early dates on Hagler's BoxRecord, I laughed when I saw the following annotation for a 1977 fight:

"Vacant Massachusetts World Middleweight Title"

Posted: 15 Apr 2004, 06:30
by knockout artist
MightyWarrior wrote:Hagler is a different class from Hopkins, who can forget about ever getting ranked near Marv in the all time great middles.

Minter was a racist, the black man quote is correct. The story about him being seen at a NF rally was false though, just a story The Sun ran with before it was retracted.
Ex light middle champ Maurice Hope used to spar Minter and said he was defintely a racist.
The crowd who threw the bottles at Wembley were just your usual run of the mill football hooligans - the only fights they ever watched were Minter's, although to be honest, it was these type of "fans" who moved onto support Bruno a few years later. Yes he was black, but he was humble, so that made him alright in these moron's eyes.
Minter is one of the most aloof and big headed boxers i have ever had the displeasure of meeting.

I met him at the memorabelia show in Hammersmith a couple of years ago. He spoke to me like I was a piece of shit.

He was world champion and all he has amounted to is a king edward potato lookalike.

It makes watching him being humiliated and beaten the shit out of by Tony Sibson all the more enjoyable.

Posted: 15 Apr 2004, 11:34
by Eric the Viking
knockout artist wrote:Minter is one of the most aloof and big headed boxers i have ever had the displeasure of meeting.
Well, I suppose that kind of rampant arrogance is justified, given that he held the world title for, oh, all of 6 months.

I never saw Minter/Hagler - how was the fight going at the time of the cut stoppage?

Posted: 15 Apr 2004, 11:46
by Eric the Viking
MightyWarrior wrote:Hagler is a different class from Hopkins, who can forget about ever getting ranked near Marv in the all time great middles.
To be fair to Bernard, he's reigned in an era where the MW division has been very weak, and you've had a whole host of guys at 154 and 168 avoiding him like the plague. Trinidad was one of the few smaller guys to try to move up and take him on, and paid a severe price, which you can be sure was well-noted by any other guys who may have been tempted to do similar. Hagler had guys like Hearns, Duran and Leonard, all of whom fought him at something that was probably (or certainly, in the case of Duran) above their ideal weight. If DLH/Hopkins actually happens and Nard beats the Golden Boy convincingly, that should silence many of the remaining doubters, at least as to whether Hopkins is an ATG top-tenner. (Still wouldn't be enough to make him the equal of Hagler, though).

And to be fair, the middleweight Jones would've given Hagler fits, as well. As fast and slick as Leonard, and a murderous puncher, to boot. Meaning Hagler would've had to be even more careful about getting inside than he did vs. Leonard, and would've been so busy defending that it would've been difficult to mount any effective offense - same thing that happened to Hopkins and Toney. But I suppose that's a topic for another thread...

All in all, Minter sounds like a rather vile character.

Posted: 15 Apr 2004, 12:03
by KOJOE90
Eric the Viking wrote:
knockout artist wrote:Minter is one of the most aloof and big headed boxers i have ever had the displeasure of meeting.

never saw Minter/Hagler - how was the fight going at the time of the cut stoppage?
I ain't watched the fight for a while but Minter landed a good left hook to Haglers head in the 1st, seemed the kind of shot that would have hurt a lot of fighters, but Hagler blinked and then carried on giving Minter a Boxing lesson and clinical beating.

If the cut had not happened I would have given Minter about another two rounds.

Hagler was a different class to Minter.

Posted: 15 Apr 2004, 12:07
by KOJOE90
Eric the Viking wrote:
MightyWarrior wrote:Hagler is a different class from Hopkins, who can forget about ever getting ranked near Marv in the all time great middles.
All in all, Minter sounds like a rather vile character.
I'm sure I've heard former Pro and Eurosport TV Commontater and general man about Boxing Steve Holdworth say that he doesn't like Minter at all.

I've also heard many people say that Steve Holdworth is a gent.