BoxRec

Interesting analysis of Ali vs. Lewis by Ali's trainer Angelo Dundee. Kind of a fun read...
It's hard to pick against Ali and Dundee but I rate Lewis as having a good chance to outbox Ali with his jab. Lewis was smart and strong and could control the range on Ali, forcing Ali to be the one to have to take chances for offense. But Ali at his best was so clever...

Discuss...

http://spam.com/articles/just-f ... nnox-lewis

Discuss?

For me, there's nothing to discuss... Ali would be too quick and mobile for Lewis. I can't see Lewis catahcing him with many power shots, and I highly doubt if he could beat Ali on boxing skill.

As a matter ofact, the more I think of it, the more I don't give Lennox a hope at all.

It's not like Lennox Lewis was a big clod, he was nimble, artful, quick handed, powerful. "The pugilist specialist." I think it's conceivable Lewis at his best could outsmart and get by prime Ali.

Lewis is underrated, too much emphasis is put on his two worst performances. It's like people forget all his masterpieces - Tua, Rahman 2, Tyson, Botha, Golota, Grant, Morrison. Lewis is a very underrated great champion.

The problem is none of those guys you list as his finest performances had much of a boxing IQ.

Certainly Lewis at his best was a tough guy to deal with but he had serious frailties. If you jabbed with him as Bruno, Mercer, and Rahman did he seemed to confuse quickly. If he went down he was done, as opposed to say a Bowe who could go down, get up, knock you down, break your jaw, etc.

The speed and sublime timing of Ali's jab would be a serious problem for Lewis. The brutal pace Ali could fight at, even as an older man, would be much harder for LL than the pace of Mercer or Mavrovic. Ali could hit as well and I see him taking an exhausted Lewis out in some fashion late on.

People have to choose first, which version of Ali they gonna put against Lewis, the quick-footed, non-stop-moving, but fragile and light-hitting version, or the tough and harder-hitting, but plodding, fighting one round, taking a rest the other round, version. There's a habbit of taking the best qualities of pre- and post-exile Ali, and combining them together to create a fighter that never existed in real life.

Senya13 wrote:People have to choose first, which version of Ali they gonna put against Lewis, the quick-footed, non-stop-moving, but fragile and light-hitting version, or the tough and harder-hitting, but plodding, fighting one round, taking a rest the other round, version. There's a habbit of taking the best qualities of pre- and post-exile Ali, and combining them together to create a fighter that never existed in real life.

True...same thing happens with Foreman.

I think it's a little harsh to call pre exile Ali light hitting or fragile. Sure, he hit harder when he started planting his feet more, but I don't think Patterson or Williams would call him light hitting, nor do I think fragile is at all fair, just not quite as unmoveable as the Thrilla version. He hit more than hard enough to keep Lewis honest, though if the long right lands, it's going to be as big a trial as he ever faced to stay up or get up.

montrealsuper wrote:It's not like Lennox Lewis was a big clod, he was nimble, artful, quick handed, powerful. "The pugilist specialist." I think it's conceivable Lewis at his best could outsmart and get by prime Ali.

You see the problem that I have with that is this: I concede that Lewis had a fantastic jab, it was like a big ramrod bricking you in the face - however whilst Lewis would be constantly pumping the jab out - Muhammad Ali would be dancing around it.

Ali was an expert of getting out-of-the-way of jabs, he had great lateral movement, and he could use his speed to move round his opponents punches... Lewis would be too stationary for him, Ali would love a fight like this.

In a way, a bout like this could resemble Ali's clashes with Liston - except the fact that Lennox doesn't hit as hard as Sonny did.

montrealsuper wrote:Lewis is underrated, too much emphasis is put on his two worst performances. It's like people forget all his masterpieces - Tua, Rahman 2, Tyson, Botha, Golota, Grant, Morrison. Lewis is a very underrated great champion.

I fear that you and I see things very differently, my rating of Lewis is the polar opposite of yours. I believe that Lennox was, if anything, overrated and that in a sort of a way, he's a poor man's version of Larry Holmes.

SamWise72 wrote:Patterson or Williams

How many times was Patterson down in his career, and how many times was he down against Ali?
Cleveland Williams? You gotta be kidding me to cite him as a proof of anything. That fight was as meaningless, as if either of the Klitschko brothers when in their prime fought today's Maskaev.

As Liston said in the dressing room after Clay I, 'they told me the guy I was fighting couldn't hit. That son of a bitch could hit!'

Ali certainly had power in the 60s but was more of a mover. The power was there when he felt the need to use it. And to claim Ali was frail in the 60s doesn't compute. You don't magically develop a chin. I know while very green Banks and Cooper got to him with fast picture perfect left hooks but by the time he was champ he was more than tough enough. Cooper failed to get close again in the rematch and its difficult to envisage a 6'5' 250lb having faster hands than Cooper, Patterson, Folley et al.

Ali 60s dances him silly Ali 70s frustrates him, wears him down and beats him up.

Crease wrote:Ali was an expert of getting out-of-the-way of jabs, he had great lateral movement, and he could use his speed to move round his opponents punches... Lewis would be too stationary for him, Ali would love a fight like this.

Well, he sure had trouble getting away from Nortons jab.

Crease wrote:In a way, a bout like this could resemble Ali's clashes with Liston - except the fact that Lennox doesn't hit as hard as Sonny did.

Of course, Lewis was much quicker with better foot movement than Liston, and I'm not sure that Liston punched harder than Lewis. They were both hard punchers and both exhibited one punch power against world class competition.

Lewis would have been a very difficult opponent for any version of Ali.

Senya13 wrote:People have to choose first, which version of Ali they gonna put against Lewis, the quick-footed, non-stop-moving, but fragile and light-hitting version, or the tough and harder-hitting, but plodding, fighting one round, taking a rest the other round, version. There's a habbit of taking the best qualities of pre- and post-exile Ali, and combining them together to create a fighter that never existed in real life.

Ali showed he was 'light-hitting' when he used to pick the round he'd stop somebody in, or showed 'fragility' by getting knocked down and back up to win the fight vs Cooper at 21 years old?

I used to follow the standard line that Ali was stronger and tougher post-exile, but honest reflection has forced me to toss that idea in the garbage heap. The Ali who fought Chuvalo, Terrell, and Folley had the best attributes Ali would ever have . . .chin, power, speed of hand and foot.

Lewis would give Ali troubles early but he wouldn't be able to keep up with the pace Ali would set, and would get more tired than vs most opponents as he'd find Ali so difficult to catch clean. Ali would also be able to outjab Lewis over the long run.

So you don't have an answer to how many times was Floyd Patterson down vs Ali? Ali was wrong with his predictions too, if somebody is not aware of that.

Young Ali gets hit by a couple of clean punches to the jaw from Lewis and he is done, he won't be able to recuperate and is finished quickly. An older version had a lot more recuperative power than the young one, and not only wouldn't go down from a couple of punches, but will be able to stall until his head clears.

Cooper, Folley quick hands? Not to mention both were journeymen, basically, and had nowhere near Lewis' punching power or accuracy.

i would favour lewis but picking against Ali seems to be a bit of a sin to many .

From the waist up, the height and long reach of Lewis would give Ali some problems. A good jab will always offset your offense and Lewis had a very good one.
But he was basically a 6'5" plodder who would have problems reaching Ali consistently, especially the younger version. I hardly would describe
Ali as "frail" at any time in his career. Of course he became bigger and stronger and absorbed blows incredibly well as the years went by, but calling him "frail" during the 60s is quite a reach. He was only floored twice in his younger days. Got up to score kayos.
Was Lewis frail for his 2 one-punch KO losses? He arose, but couldn't continue. Maybe that's frail.

Senya13 wrote:So you don't have an answer to how many times was Floyd Patterson down vs Ali? Ali was wrong with his predictions too, if somebody is not aware of that.

Young Ali gets hit by a couple of clean punches to the jaw from Lewis and he is done, he won't be able to recuperate and is finished quickly. An older version had a lot more recuperative power than the young one, and not only wouldn't go down from a couple of punches, but will be able to stall until his head clears.

Cooper, Folley quick hands? Not to mention both were journeymen, basically, and had nowhere near Lewis' punching power or accuracy.

Of course he was sometimes wrong with his predictions; better than the 70s in which he was always wrong . . .

You have no rational basis to claim the 60 Ali "is done" if hit by some clean punches from Lewis. Based on what? The guy was never knocked out and never even hurt once after he won the title. I guess the overweight 35 year old Ali already suffering from early Parkinsons who fought Shavers was far more durable than a 27 year old, 212 man in the prime of his life.

Cooper or Folley were journeyman? . . ok whatever.

Based on Cooper fight, quite obviously. Had he been with someone who was a better fighter than Cooper (who may have been good for Great Britain, but at world level he was absolutely mediocre), and had it been near the start of the round or the middle, he would have no chance to survive, the way he looked so bewildered, clearly showed that. The man wanted to quit vs Liston, which shows he wasn't that tough mentally either.

Ali was 21 years old fighting a world ranked contender, got up, and won the fight. He was not yet in his prime in terms of skills or physically (I would say he entered that around the Williams fight). Just look at the Cooper rematch years later . . Henry couldn't hit Ali with a handful of rice that night.

I notice you like to generally be the contrarian here on historical topics, but you need rational ideas to back up your claims. That someone in their 30s would suddenly have a heart or chin they lacked in their 20s (I guess they went to see the Wizard!) makes no sense . . .

What do skills have to do with Cooper fight and what I said? You saying somehow his chin had got sturdier after 21 and up to 1967, as he matured? I suppose there's a medical explanation for that, like the bones in his skull grew thicker or something, eh?

P.S. Once again, stop using Williams fight for anything. Even a third-rater would have looked like an ATG vs that Williams.

Senya13 wrote:What do skills have to do with Cooper fight and what I said? You saying somehow his chin had got sturdier after 21 and up to 1967, as he matured? I suppose there's a medical explanation for that, like the bones in his skull grew thicker or something, eh?

P.S. Once again, stop using Williams fight for anything. Even a third-rater would have looked like an ATG vs that Williams.

"Even a third-rater would have looked like an ATG vs that Williams". Senya13

Senya, you made an absolutely correct observation, but unfortunately some of the Ali shills here are either too damned dumb to understand that or too biased to admit it.

Williams was a shell of a fighter that night. He also learned before going into the ring that his purse was going to be attached and he totally lost his heart for even going out to the ring. Ali got to dance around and knock the poor guy down a few times and the Ali Cabana Boys take it to be an awesome display of speed and power.

What a freaking joke.

As to Folley and Cooper being journeymen, yes, again you are right. Folley early in the '60s was a skilled fighter but the '67 version was a tired, worn-out guy. That fight in March, 1967 from MSG was shown on live TV. I remember it like it was yesterday. The first thing that night that told me Folley's outlook was that he gets into the ring, immediately sets on his stool with his head down and basically stays there until called out for the ref's instructions. What body language. The fight was basically 7 rounds of Ali dancing around, flicking out his jab with Folley plodding around doing little. Folley gets knocked down by a right around the 4th, gets up and Ali carries him a bit before doing the same thing again a few rounds later to end it. Folley showed great deference to Ali throughout the run-up to the bout and was grateful for the paycheck. In return, Ali and his camp praised him as a great challenger, yada, yada, yada.

The only interesting thing about the telecast that night was that a replay of the Ellis-Persol undercard fight was shown. Ellis looked great and that was the fight that got him into the WBA tournament.

Ali was a great fighter, but he faced some seriously underwhelming challengers in that era from '65 to '67.

The Great John L wrote:

Crease wrote:Ali was an expert of getting out-of-the-way of jabs, he had great lateral movement, and he could use his speed to move round his opponents punches... Lewis would be too stationary for him, Ali would love a fight like this.

Well, he sure had trouble getting away from Nortons jab.

Crease wrote:In a way, a bout like this could resemble Ali's clashes with Liston - except the fact that Lennox doesn't hit as hard as Sonny did.

Of course, Lewis was much quicker with better foot movement than Liston, and I'm not sure that Liston punched harder than Lewis. They were both hard punchers and both exhibited one punch power against world class competition.

Lewis would have been a very difficult opponent for any version of Ali.

Agreed.

The Great John L wrote:Well, he sure had trouble getting away from Nortons jab.

Ah, yes. Norton is always the dark horse in these conversations when peope's opinions go against Ali.
There is a fair argument to be made that Ali wasn't in on his best night whenever he fought Norton each of those times. But cearly that could just be down to the fact that Norton's style didn't favour Ali's style.

I would also state that I don't think that Lennox's style is comparable to Norton.

Lennox is a tricky opponent for any Heavy ever. I’d always pick Ali to win but dismissing Lewis’s chances is quite foolhardy.

Ezzard wrote:Lennox is a tricky opponent for any Heavy ever. I’d always pick Ali to win but dismissing Lewis’s chances is quite foolhardy.

This.

Ezzard wrote:Lennox is a tricky opponent for any Heavy ever. I’d always pick Ali to win but dismissing Lewis’s chances is quite foolhardy.

Agree, Lewis had the tools, the mind, the weapons to do a number on Ali. Would not have been easy by any means, but Lewis is one of those great fighters who will always be underestimated and misunderstood.