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... what would have happened? let's say he fights twice a
year, makes six more fights and would retire mid thirties,
at a very reasonable age for a hw champ. whom would he
take on and what would he score in these six bouts?

man wrote:... what would have happened? let's say he fights twice a
year, makes six more fights and would retire mid thirties,
at a very reasonable age for a hw champ. whom would he
take on and what would he score in these six bouts?

You reckon Charles "Sonny" Liston gets one of those fights?

yancey wrote:

man wrote:... what would have happened? let's say he fights twice a
year, makes six more fights and would retire mid thirties,
at a very reasonable age for a hw champ. whom would he
take on and what would he score in these six bouts?

You reckon Charles "Sonny" Liston gets one of those fights?

At the time of The Rock's retirement Liston was a mere novice with five fights to his credit. In three years he was not yet on the fringe. So I find it highly unlikely that he would have gotten a shot. If I am not mistaken five of the top ten contenders when Marciano retired were: Archie Moore, Tommy Jackson, Earl Walls, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker.... Patterson himself wasn't ranked as a heavyweight until he defeated Slade and Jackson, his mention as one of Marciano's successors in some aspects was a rather odd one considering he had only a few fights as a heavyweight.

Baker and Valdes were frozen out because of a horrid performance they had, Earl Walls retired rather than face Marciano, nobody was interested in an Archie Moore rematch, etc. it would have been rather difficult to of found someone that the public could have bought into and would be worth Marciano's time. But had he not retired.... Do I think he could have lasted as champion for another three years? I do think he could have made 50-0, or even 55-0. But the problem would have been whether Marciano's psyche would have held up for that long. His family says Marciano was starting to resent in training camp and was starting to no longer do his daily walks by the time of the Moore fight. Certainly nobody would have been around for at least four-five years that could have beaten him, with exception to possibly Eddie Machen who Floyd Patterson ducked for alot longer than Liston. But that is the Marciano who brought his A game with him at all times. Could he of done so for another three years? I don't know.

i do not know enough about the game in general
and that period in particular, but when i looked
at it i came to the conclusion that there was not
too much competition out there in the years after
rocky retired. liston was no contender yet, moore
was beaten in a battle, but decisively. the big names
that would soon come up were not yet around. i
think young ingemar johansson might have been a
contender.

yancey wrote:

man wrote:... what would have happened? let's say he fights twice a
year, makes six more fights and would retire mid thirties,
at a very reasonable age for a hw champ. whom would he
take on and what would he score in these six bouts?

You reckon Charles "Sonny" Liston gets one of those fights?

i doubt it.
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

HomicideHenry wrote:Patterson himself wasn't ranked as a heavyweight until he defeated Slade and Jackson, his mention as one of Marciano's successors in some aspects was a rather odd one considering he had only a few fights as a heavyweight.

wasn't it more usual at that time for heavies to
fight smaller men? since rocky himself was not
big and archie moore had achieved more at LH ...

i would think patterson and johansson could have
been among the six.

out of the established boxers of his time i do not
see a reasonable matchup, since rocky had beaten
everybody convincingly. so it must be newcomers
or names from other weight classes.

If you had to bet everything on '58 Rocky vs '58 Liston, who you got?

yancey wrote:If you had to bet everything on '58 Rocky vs '58 Liston, who you got?

veteran confident rocky marciano vs rookie liston
could make an interesting fight. it is always in a
way difficult to judge how people would do against
the enduring, pressuring rocky. prime for prime i
would favor liston, but he was really fresh back
then.

i am not sure if sonny was so quickly regarded as
a contender, so the fight might not have happened.
and from what i read about the patterson fight i
doubt that rocky voluntarily would have given him
an early chance at the title.

Marciano probably would still have been the champion three years later. He most likely would have fought Patterson during this time but not probably not Liston.
He may have fought Johansson in 1958, but probably not.
We probably would have seen the beat Valdes, Jackson, Moore another time. maybe Machen.

BarryWashington wrote:

yancey wrote:If you had to bet everything on '58 Rocky vs '58 Liston, who you got?

Liston

Agreed.

Another consideration people almost always fail to mention in discussions concerning Marciano and whether he could have made the 'golden fifty' is the IBC. Because of Patterson and D'Amato, the strength of the IBC was broken at last and fell into federal investigations for monopolising the heavyweight division. If Marciano had stayed on, who knows whether the IBC would have continued at full strength or not. Other heavyweight contenders at the time (when Patterson became champion) was Willie Pastrano, who was an IBC connected fighter---- D'Amato called his shots and Pastrano never did get to face Patterson. So, the logic must go, if Marciano never retired the only ones who would have gotten their shots at him would have been IBC connected fighters.

Pastrano, Jackson, Machen, Johnson, Baker, Valdes, would have been likely candidates. Patterson, being unconnected to the IBC, may of had to wait a while to get his shot or cut a deal with them.* I can't see any of those men, save for Machen, who would have had a solid shot at beating Marciano or being competitive. One only has to look at Machen's fight with Johansson and figure that if the often-times amateurish Johansson could land the overhand right, what would Marciano of done to him?

Patterson could have gotten a deal with the IBC down the road, after all D'Amato cut the deal with them for Patterson to get the shot at Moore---- only to leave them in the dust afterwards. But, considering Floyd could be hurt easily by such men as Pete Rademacher, go almost the distance with men like Brian London, Roy Harris, etc. at his physical peak it's hard to imagine what he could have been able to do with Rocky, especially the earlier the fight comes to Patterson. Mind you, when Marciano considered making the comeback against Ingemar Johansson, D'Amato managed to block the deal by trumping it with a solid rematch clause he had for Patterson. Did he do that to ensure his fighter's well being financially and with the hope of regaining the title? Or was there deeper motivations, that if Marciano could beat Johansson, that D'Amato knew that Patterson wouldn't be able to do much with Marciano?

Henry Cooper, who was a fringe contender at the time, has stated on many occasions there was only two men he was ever scared to death of and would turn down offers to fight and that was Liston and Marciano. The fact remains, Marciano simply had no one around who could have beaten him. Such was his ferocity and work rate and punching power, that people favored him to defeat Johanasson when the comeback rumors began (Marciano stated on live television that he would face either man). Whether he could have done it is another story altogether. But I think he could have potentially held the title until 1959-1960 and retired undefeated. There simply was no one at their best (like Liston and Patterson) at the time, or there was fighters who posed no real threat.

A couple more possibilities are Folley and DeJohn. No one had a good chance in 1955. How much Marciano would have declined by 1958 is hard to guess. Still, most likely he still would have been champ.

Does he still have back problems during this hypothetical three-year period?

I would imagine so.

He may have possibly had a rematch with Archie Moore, and I figure a fight with Floyd Patterson would've occurred sometime over the 3 year period.

I think Marciano facing off with Floyd Patterson in '56 or '57 is a good matchup as well. Rocky was obviously the harder hitting, and stronger of the two, but I think Floyd's boxing skill and quickness would've given him some trouble....more trouble than it gave Liston that's for sure

HomicideHenry wrote:At the time of The Rock's retirement Liston was a mere novice with five fights to his credit. In three years he was not yet on the fringe. So I find it highly unlikely that he would have gotten a shot. If I am not mistaken five of the top ten contenders when Marciano retired were: Archie Moore, Tommy Jackson, Earl Walls, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker.... Patterson himself wasn't ranked as a heavyweight until he defeated Slade and Jackson, his mention as one of Marciano's successors in some aspects was a rather odd one considering he had only a few fights as a heavyweight.

Often this question is really about - who were the Top Heavyweight Contenders around the autumn of 1955 and the spring of 1956.
This website is a great resource for that information:

http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_R ... ght--1950s

Upon looking at that information:

......1955..............................1956
1 ..Archie Moore....................Tommy Hurricane Jackson
2 ..Bob Baker........................Archie Moore
3 ..Tommy Hurricane Jackson...Harold Carter
4 ..John Holman.....................Willie Pastrano
5 ..Willie Pastrano..................Eddie Machen
6 ..Nino Valdes......................Bob Satterfield
7 ..Johnny Summerlin..............Ingermar Johansson
8 ..Bob Satterfield..................Bob Baker
9 ..Young Jack Johnson...........Zora Folley
10. Ezzard Charles..................Wayne Bethea

Between Marciano's final fight against Moore (Sept 1955) and when he announced his retirement (April 1956) who exactly in the Heavyweight Division could have beaten Marciano?

I think that is always the real question at stake here.

I would have expected his last 5/6 fights to have been against: Hurricane Jackson, Bob Baker, Bob Satterfield, Nino Valdes, Ingemar Johansson and Floyd Patterson (probably in that order).

And I can see him winning them all.