BoxRec

I don't think it cost him much, as a win over that version of Quarry, Cooper and Urtain wouldn't have done much for his legacy.
Interesting fact, though.

Ali sure changed that.

Frazier's "retirement period" began about a month after the FOTC, to my way of thinking.

Mentally, he stayed in the game until he climbed his mountain in beating Ali. I do not think he was physically at his peak for the FOTC, but both men gave a truly phenomenal effort that night.

Post-FOTC, boxing became a business to Frazier and he lost that "joy of combat" outlook. Music became his priority.

He got back into boxing mentally only for the rematch with Quarry in '74 and his great effort at Manila, but his physical skills had definitely declined.

Seeing that Quarry-Frazier rematch in '74 was a bit sad compared to the much sharper performance the two men put on five years prior.

Il Duce wrote:

Rover wrote:Ali sure changed that.

2,500,000 reasons,,,,,,,,

Yep, that'll do it.

Il Duce wrote:I did see Joe Frazier sparring at The Concord in upstate New York back in February 1971.

He was not sharp against Light-Heavyweight 'Sugar' Ray Anderson, who was able to out-quick
the bulky 225+ lbs. Mr. Frazier.

It looked like Mr. Frazier had let himself go, after flipping off his Harley-Davidson a few times
and injuring his right knee.

'Sugar' Ray Anderson made us laugh when he said the toughest sparring partner in Camp was
Harley Davidson, as he had dropped Joe more than a few times.

The Evening Star (Newspaper) called Joe a stuffed 'Philly Hoagie'

Goes to show how misleading sparring can be.

Il Duce wrote:I did see Joe Frazier sparring at The Concord in upstate New York back in February 1971.

He was not sharp against Light-Heavyweight 'Sugar' Ray Anderson, who was able to out-quick
the bulky 225+ lbs. Mr. Frazier.

It looked like Mr. Frazier had let himself go, after flipping off his Harley-Davidson a few times
and injuring his right knee.

'Sugar' Ray Anderson made us laugh when he said the toughest sparring partner in Camp was
Harley Davidson, as he had dropped Joe more than a few times.

The Evening Star (Newspaper) called Joe a stuffed 'Philly Hoagie'

Duce, you're a sharp guy and you were there at Frazier's camp in 2/71 so I'll take your word for it.

From afar I thought Frazier still had the desire until after he beat Ali, but I could be wrong.

I do agree that he was, in physical terms, somewhat past his actual peak when he entered the ring for the FOTC.

Nancey wrote:
Sometimes I dream that I met Joe and he didn't laugh at me

Nancey, what would you give to be curled up there with Joe?

It is interesting to look back on history and Frazier's mindset at this time. Had he of retired after the FOTC with Ali, I think historically he would have went down as probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, if not in the top five. But, because he stayed as long as he did he lost two more to Ali, twice in devestating fashion to Foreman, etc. really tarnished his overall standing.

HomicideHenry wrote:It is interesting to look back on history and Frazier's mindset at this time. Had he of retired after the FOTC with Ali, I think historically he would have went down as probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, if not in the top five. But, because he stayed as long as he did he lost two more to Ali, twice in devestating fashion to Foreman, etc. really tarnished his overall standing.

Remember Rufus, those losses don't actually count.

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:It is interesting to look back on history and Frazier's mindset at this time. Had he of retired after the FOTC with Ali, I think historically he would have went down as probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, if not in the top five. But, because he stayed as long as he did he lost two more to Ali, twice in devestating fashion to Foreman, etc. really tarnished his overall standing.

Remember Rufus, those losses don't actually count.

To the Ali fanbase, they probably don't. I think another reason, and it's a substantially bigger reason for why Frazier isn't considered as high up as Ali, is because Cassius Clay/Cassius X/Muhammad Ali turned the fights into a political ploy. The People's Champion versus The System's Champion. The Real Black Man versus The Uncle Tom. The Greatest versus The Gorilla, etc. as if Frazier wasn't a black man at all, but a white man in black clothing. As if Frazier wasn't in with the times, that he was a slave under the thumb of white masters. It minimalised and scruitinised Frazier's worth in the public's mind. "He isn't one of us, he's one of them," the same so-called oppressors who put Ali in exile, the same racist and bigoted white masters who put the masses into Vietnam, etc.

It was all a bunch of horse shit that Ali and his crew and the Black Muslims put together, and Howard Cossell played up to the hilt. It had nothing to do with sports anymore, and if you listen to cocksuckers like Bryant Gumble and other "historians" and commentators they will act as if the FOTC, the rematch and Manila was a fight to put black men out of the depths of oppression and that Ali was some sort of hero. Nothing could be further from the truth. Ali, like Jack Johnson before him, just knew how to start trouble and keep it going and creating racial divides, rather than bringing people together. He did the same thing to Floyd Patterson, calling him the "White Man's person" in his rhymes and poems and brutalised Ernie Terrell and others just cus they called him 'Clay'. For a man who didnt believe in "violence" or race mongering and all that shit, he sure as hell did it in spades.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:It is interesting to look back on history and Frazier's mindset at this time. Had he of retired after the FOTC with Ali, I think historically he would have went down as probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, if not in the top five. But, because he stayed as long as he did he lost two more to Ali, twice in devestating fashion to Foreman, etc. really tarnished his overall standing.

Remember Rufus, those losses don't actually count.

To the Ali fanbase, they probably don't. I think another reason, and it's a substantially bigger reason for why Frazier isn't considered as high up as Ali, is because Cassius Clay/Cassius X/Muhammad Ali turned the fights into a political ploy. The People's Champion versus The System's Champion. The Real Black Man versus The Uncle Tom. The Greatest versus The Gorilla, etc. as if Frazier wasn't a black man at all, but a white man in black clothing. As if Frazier wasn't in with the times, that he was a slave under the thumb of white masters. It minimalised and scruitinised Frazier's worth in the public's mind. "He isn't one of us, he's one of them," the same so-called oppressors who put Ali in exile, the same racist and bigoted white masters who put the masses into Vietnam, etc.

It was all a bunch of horse poo that Ali and his crew and the Black Muslims put together, and Howard Cossell played up to the hilt. It had nothing to do with sports anymore, and if you listen to cocksuckers like Bryant Gumble and other "historians" and commentators they will act as if the FOTC, the rematch and Manila was a fight to put black men out of the depths of oppression and that Ali was some sort of hero. Nothing could be further from the truth. Ali, like Jack Johnson before him, just knew how to start trouble and keep it going and creating racial divides, rather than bringing people together. He did the same thing to Floyd Patterson, calling him the "White Man's person" in his rhymes and poems and brutalised Ernie Terrell and others just cus they called him 'Clay'. For a man who didnt believe in "violence" or race mongering and all that poo, he sure as hell did it in spades.

This is a very significant post.

You are an individual that understands substantially what really went down back then.

I do think Ali himself was more a useful tool rather a ringleader.

HomicideHenry wrote:It is interesting to look back on history and Frazier's mindset at this time. Had he of retired after the FOTC with Ali, I think historically he would have went down as probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, if not in the top five. But, because he stayed as long as he did he lost two more to Ali, twice in devestating fashion to Foreman, etc. really tarnished his overall standing.

You are correct.

Frazier should have taken Yank Durham's advice and retired after the FOTC.

His goals in boxing had been met and he was emotionally no longer in the game.

yancey wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:It is interesting to look back on history and Frazier's mindset at this time. Had he of retired after the FOTC with Ali, I think historically he would have went down as probably the greatest heavyweight of all time, if not in the top five. But, because he stayed as long as he did he lost two more to Ali, twice in devestating fashion to Foreman, etc. really tarnished his overall standing.

You are correct.

Frazier should have taken Yank Durham's advice and retired after the FOTC.

His goals in boxing had been met and he was emotionally no longer in the game.

x3

yancey wrote: Frazier should have taken Yank Durham's advice and retired after the FOTC.

His goals in boxing had been met and he was emotionally no longer in the game.

Nancey, the fact that Frazier did continue would suggest that he believed his goals in boxing had not been met.

Do you ever think before you post?

Giancarlo wrote:

yancey wrote: Frazier should have taken Yank Durham's advice and retired after the FOTC.

His goals in boxing had been met and he was emotionally no longer in the game.

Nancey, the fact that Frazier did continue would suggest that he believed his goals in boxing had not been met.

Do you ever think before you post?

shoo fly

Giancarlo has a point.

Like the proverbial stopped clock...right on occasion.

It's hard to give up the limelight.

He sure got hurt in the ring later.

Il Duce wrote:

Rover wrote:He sure got hurt in the ring later.

The 'Smokin Joe Musical Revue' with the 'Knockouts' fell of the musical charts.

The $5000 per Weekend Night 'gigs' were no more by the end of 1971.

'Smokin Joe and the Knockouts' were un-bookable,,,,,,,,,, even on Cruise Ship Packages.

They must've really been garbage.