BoxRec

We already know that the great Floyd Mayweather, Jr is an all-time great. Probably a top 50 fighter to some. To others, he need to do more in order to be a top 50 all time pound per pound great.

What it would mean a victory over Saul "Canelo" Alvarez to you?

A top 10 all-time great? With the exception of the great Manny Pacquiao (They never fought and probably will never fight each other), he has already beaten the very best fighters of his time from 130lbs going up to 154lbs.

He is 36 years old now, and he is fighting an undefeated young Mexican warrior and champion in Canelo. Remember, every fighter had their time. Would this be Pretty Boy's last?

If he retires after this fight and wins, where in the top 50 all time list pound per pound would you place him?

The best?
A top 5?
A top 10?
A top 15?
A top 20?
Or, he got to do more?

It's one of those fights where we'd have to wait to see what Canelo did over the rest of his career to judge the significance of a win. We don't really know how good Canelo is yet.

J-C wrote:It's one of those fights where we'd have to wait to see what Canelo did over the rest of his career to judge the significance of a win. We don't really know how good Canelo is yet.

This exactly. In the meantime it would be just another Floyd win.

I don't rate Alvarez very highly at all. Honestly the Guerrero win is more significant in my eyes.

I dont think a win over Howdy Doody is gonna mean much until Alvarez shows following this fight whether he will turn out to be a great fighter himself. Only way Mayweather turns into an ATG for me is if he went middleweight and won that title. Other than that, I cant say he's a top 20 or 10 p4p fighter of all time.

dempseyfire wrote:I don't rate Alvarez very highly at all. Honestly the Guerrero win is more significant in my eyes.

I figure Canelo will wind up going further than Guerrero.

It's mayweather, he won't get credit for what he is doing for decades. It's pretty funny, he shut out one of the greatest fighters of all time and his 'fans' or even unbiased observers don't even mention it when they shit on his ledger. He's top 20-40 all time and beating Opie doesn't change it. One things for sure, he better be ready, because the judges have a 10 next to Alvarez before every round.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's mayweather, he won't get credit for what he is doing for decades. It's pretty funny, he shut out one of the greatest fighters of all time and his 'fans' or even unbiased observers don't even mention it when they poo on his ledger. He's top 20-40 all time and beating Opie doesn't change it. One things for sure, he better be ready, because the judges have a 10 next to Alvarez before every round.

You talking about Marquez? With the he shutout one of the greatest fighters of all time comment.

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's mayweather, he won't get credit for what he is doing for decades. It's pretty funny, he shut out one of the greatest fighters of all time and his 'fans' or even unbiased observers don't even mention it when they poo on his ledger. He's top 20-40 all time and beating Opie doesn't change it. One things for sure, he better be ready, because the judges have a 10 next to Alvarez before every round.

You talking about Marquez? With the he shutout one of the greatest fighters of all time comment.

Yes, the initial whining was somewhat understandable. Yet Marquez clowning Pac twice at 147 hasn't changed anyone's mind.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's mayweather, he won't get credit for what he is doing for decades. It's pretty funny, he shut out one of the greatest fighters of all time and his 'fans' or even unbiased observers don't even mention it when they poo on his ledger. He's top 20-40 all time and beating Opie doesn't change it. One things for sure, he better be ready, because the judges have a 10 next to Alvarez before every round.

You talking about Marquez? With the he shutout one of the greatest fighters of all time comment.

Yes, the initial whining was somewhat understandable. Yet Marquez clowning Pac twice at 147 hasn't changed anyone's mind.

I give Floyd full credit for that win personally, obviously I don't speak for everybody...but Marquez has shown he's able to handle himself just fine at the weight against other Elite fighters...he just couldn't do a thing with Floyd.

You're right that the judges will likely be heavily leaning towards Canelo in any close rounds in this one. For a lot of reasons.

1. He's 23, Floyd's 36. Floyd only has a few more years in the sport, Canelo still has at least a decade...probably more like 15 years.
2. It would build up interest in a rematch that would likely be an even bigger event.
3. Just the fact that Canelo will be the bigger, stronger man will mean his punches seem harder and thus more impressive to the judges.

Great skills. Not a gold standard career. There are likely 10 welterweights who rate above him in a p4p sense.

Top 20? Doesn't really add up.

I don't have time to sit down and work it all out...

But as a rule of thumb...an easy way to estimate...

Does the fighter make the top 5 of any of the original 8 divisions?

No

So by my rudimentary methodology he doesn't crack a top 40.

That's certainly a bizarre way of ranking fighters. So a career Jr. Welterweight has no chance? Many great fighters wouldn't fit that criteria. I wouldn't have Mickey Walker in any divisional Top 5 either. He's damn sure in my top 40.

You don't have to pick through the bones to see Mickey's credentials. It's clear and obvious.

We all know enough to have Canzoneri etc...in there.

And I agree some slip through the net but that's why it's a quick and simple, rather than definitive, and gives me a ball park answer. But I'm not ranking them. I'm holding a finger in the wind so as to give a quick answer.

You're one of the most objective posters I've run across, you lose that with Mayweather.

I want to know who the idiot was who voted Mayweather as a top 5 p4p great.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It's mayweather, he won't get credit for what he is doing for decades. It's pretty funny, he shut out one of the greatest fighters of all time and his 'fans' or even unbiased observers don't even mention it when they poo on his ledger. He's top 20-40 all time and beating Opie doesn't change it. One things for sure, he better be ready, because the judges have a 10 next to Alvarez before every round.

You talking about Marquez? With the he shutout one of the greatest fighters of all time comment.

Yes, the initial whining was somewhat understandable. Yet Marquez clowning Pac twice at 147 hasn't changed anyone's mind.

That win rightly doesn't get much credit b/c

a) It was Marquez's first fight above 135, and Floyd pissed all over the contract and came in over the contracted weight

b) Floyd has grown into a natural welter (at least a small welter). Pac is not. Pac-Floyd was an intriguing matchup due to Manny's style and (notably) punching power. A smaller aggressive fighter with power can wear out a bigger boxer (Basilio-Robinson is one example). A smaller boxer-stylist vs a larger boxer-stylist almost always loses b/c that is where a size advantage is most effective; it's speed vs speed but someone has big advantages in the reach and strength departments (see Norris-Taylor). Not to mention that it has been clear Manny began a serious decline as a fighter post-Margarito, so the Manny win while impressive does not suddenly make JMM a great welterweight.

Mayweather is a clear ATG and those who refuse to acknowledge that are simply deluding themselves. Far lesser fighters than Mayweather have had the label attatched to them, and Mayweather has accomplished enough and unquestionably has the all-around ability to be considered as such. Not every fighter has to be in the same class as Robinson, Armstrong or Charles to be rated as an all time great. And I say this as someone who isn't a fan of his.



As for Alvarez: he looks to be a talent, but I refuse to buy into him as being an elite fighter. He's been the product of great hype and extremely careful matchmaking over the last three years and has only beat one genuinely world class level boxer, and that was a very close fight at that. All the other guy's have eiher been physically overmatched or were well past their best and no longer relevant. Maybe he'll go on to become a great fighter, but he's merely a pretty good talent to me right now and nothing more than that.

dempseyfire wrote: quote]

That win rightly doesn't get much credit b/c

a) It was Marquez's first fight above 135, and Floyd pissed all over the contract and came in over the contracted weight

b) Floyd has grown into a natural welter (at least a small welter). Pac is not. Pac-Floyd was an intriguing matchup due to Manny's style and (notably) punching power. A smaller aggressive fighter with power can wear out a bigger boxer (Basilio-Robinson is one example). A smaller boxer-stylist vs a larger boxer-stylist almost always loses b/c that is where a size advantage is most effective; it's speed vs speed but someone has big advantages in the reach and strength departments (see Norris-Taylor). Not to mention that it has been clear Manny began a serious decline as a fighter post-Margarito, so the Marquez win while impressive does not suddenly make JMM a great welterweight.

It would not even make him a top 100 pound per pound great either.

Well, Pretty Boy has beaten almost everybody ain't he? Ain't that some of you folks criteria?

Well, Pretty Boy has beaten almost everybody ain't he? Ain't that some of you folks criteria?

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
You talking about Marquez? With the he shutout one of the greatest fighters of all time comment.

Yes, the initial whining was somewhat understandable. Yet Marquez clowning Pac twice at 147 hasn't changed anyone's mind.

That win rightly doesn't get much credit b/c

a) It was Marquez's first fight above 135, and Floyd pissed all over the contract and came in over the contracted weight

b) Floyd has grown into a natural welter (at least a small welter). Pac is not. Pac-Floyd was an intriguing matchup due to Manny's style and (notably) punching power. A smaller aggressive fighter with power can wear out a bigger boxer (Basilio-Robinson is one example). A smaller boxer-stylist vs a larger boxer-stylist almost always loses b/c that is where a size advantage is most effective; it's speed vs speed but someone has big advantages in the reach and strength departments (see Norris-Taylor). Not to mention that it has been clear Manny began a serious decline as a fighter post-Margarito, so the Manny win while impressive does not suddenly make JMM a great welterweight.

a)
He came in right where he was supposed to. If anyone has a problem with that they should take it up with Marquez who agreed to 146 several days before the fight.

b)Floyd is far from a natural Welter(in todays game) and he isn't any larger than Manny. He could weigh in at 147 a month before his fight at 154. I don't recall calling Marquez a great Welterweight. He's a great fighter that Floyd made look like a novice and he gets zero credit for it. That's outlandish.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:
You talking about Marquez? With the he shutout one of the greatest fighters of all time comment.

Yes, the initial whining was somewhat understandable. Yet Marquez clowning Pac twice at 147 hasn't changed anyone's mind.

That win rightly doesn't get much credit b/c

a) It was Marquez's first fight above 135, and Floyd pissed all over the contract and came in over the contracted weight

b) Floyd has grown into a natural welter (at least a small welter). Pac is not. Pac-Floyd was an intriguing matchup due to Manny's style and (notably) punching power. A smaller aggressive fighter with power can wear out a bigger boxer (Basilio-Robinson is one example). A smaller boxer-stylist vs a larger boxer-stylist almost always loses b/c that is where a size advantage is most effective; it's speed vs speed but someone has big advantages in the reach and strength departments (see Norris-Taylor). Not to mention that it has been clear Manny began a serious decline as a fighter post-Margarito, so the Manny win while impressive does not suddenly make JMM a great welterweight.

a)
He came in right where he was supposed to. If anyone has a problem with that they should take it up with Marquez who agreed to 146 several days before the fight.

b)Floyd is far from a natural Welter(in todays game) and he isn't any larger than Manny. He could weigh in at 147 a month before his fight at 154. I don't recall calling Marquez a great Welterweight. He's a great fighter that Floyd made look like a novice and he gets zero credit for it. That's outlandish.[/quote]

What are you talking about? "the bout was supposed to be fought at a catchweight of 144 lbs. When Mayweather Jr. weighed in two pounds over the contracted weight, he was forced to pay Marquez $600,000 ($300,000 per pound)."

And Floyd isn't any bigger than Manny? If you think a 20 year old Floyd could've weighed in at flyweight (or years later at super-bantam) as Manny did without going to the ER you are delusional. Floyd is clearly the bigger man.

I don't give Monzon much credit for beating Napoles either, doesn't matter that Napoles was great . . .

He wasn't forced to do anything. He contacted Marquez earlier in the week and offered him $600,000 to change the contract. If he had actually missed weight the penalty would have been far more severe. What was last minute was the submission of the amended contract to the commission.

Plenty of 20 year olds are bigger when they're 30, natural or not, at this point in time Floyd isn't bigger than Manny. That isn't an opinion.

Monzon & Napoles is a terrible example. First off they are naturally several divisions apart and Jose never did anything at Middleweight.

one day everbody gets beat (except Marciano and he probably would have)...I just don't think it's time for Jr. to lose to a guy thats taylor made for his style.

max hord wrote:one day everbody gets beat (except Marciano and he probably would have)...I just don't think it's time for Jr. to lose to a guy thats taylor made for his style.

And you was right, buddy. In order to beat Pretty Boy Floyd you've got to pressure him. Canelo was not going to win by outboxing Floyd.

Now that Pretty Boy won, is he a top 15 at least all-time p4p? He got lots of credentials. Since 1998, hea has beaten the very best, except the great Manny Pacquiao. A fight with Pac Man, to me, would be too late now.

If Mayweather is not a top 15, he is definately a top 20 or top 25. At least a top 50 now.