BoxRec

Now this is one thing I do actually agree with you on, at least in the rematch. I think the 1st time Ali legitimately frustrated Liston and beat him to the punch enough that he just quit, in the rematch Liston didn't even intend to try and clearly took a dive in the first round.

I don't know why he took a dive or what he had to gain from it, but he definitely took a dive.

Liston was a legitimate threat and in fact was the major favorite over Ali the first time they fought. The 2nd time...he just had no intention of even trying apparently.

Il Duce wrote:I think the ball started rolling right after the '1st' Floyd Patterson bout in Chicago {September 25, 1962}.

Sonny only ended up with a fight purse of $50,000 out of nearly a $5,000,000 'Gross'.

Sonny Boy, who was supposed to get a fight purse guarantee of $200,000 and a % of the Live Gate,
was 'jerked around', as the fight contract stipulated that if he defeated the Champion - Floyd Patterson,
$150,000 of his fight purse would be put in escrow, as part of the 'rematch clause' in the contract.

Sonny was supposed to get 12% of the Gross/Net, but only had received $50,000 after the fight.

After the Managers Fee and Taxes, Sonny Liston only ended up with $16,000.

The only god thing that Jack Nilon got for Sonny, was $25,000 'up-front money' for training expenses.

Winning the Heavyweight Championship,,,,,,,,,was not all it was cracked up to be.

Dude should've learned to read them contracts.

Il Duce wrote:Charles 'Sonny' Liston was not very well-schooled.

He had little to no education.......Term; Illiterate

Boxing takes advantage of guys like that. He should've either learned to read or had somebody around him he could really trust. Stuff like that happens in Boxing though, Rocky Marciano's manager dicked him out of a lot of money too.

Il duce, if you are saying he did anything other than just getting whupped, in the first fight you are 100% inaccurate.

If you are saying he took a dive in the second fight...well that's possible. But it was an internal implosion of psyche, nothing bought and paid for. Nothing empirical to support your suspicions.

But like many works of fiction, to tell this story sewing truth, into your imagination....can be quite entertaining! But you are going to annoy the historians who want some sort of empirical evidence.

Fact is you can take any and all sorts of "facts" and then spin them to fit your fancy. Someone could come to us and follow some dots and "spin" in an infinite amount of directions. With enough intent and focus and time, you can build just about any "dot following" you'd like to.

I suppose we are going to be taken down the path of assumptions that you will provide based on following the dots of your choice.


Based on such "following of dots"
To some.....Elvis is alive
To some.....No one has gone to the moon


The truth is out there.

Only a "mark" for the sanctity and purity of boxing can't or won't see that the first Liston-Ali fight was rancid to the core. And the fact is that, as Duce has clearly and painstakingly detailed here and other places, Liston had no reason not to tank in the first fight for financial reasons and would've been as dumb as a turnip to fight it straight for less cash then and in his future. And I'd hope we can at least admit that Sonny and his mob handlers were not bad businessmen.

Ali beats him regardless if he takes dive or not. Too fast and big with grest Jab and chin

And what Scallum said might be true too.

But there was a quote from Hauser's bio that makes me think Ali himself thought differently.

Ok...this is as knee deep as any Kennedy conspiracy...or No one has been to the moon conspiracy. lol.


The first fight was on the level period. All you need to do is have a knowledge of body language. Sonny was telegraphing his intent to punish Ali at the beginning of the fight......simply watch very very carefully.....(even a layman can accomplish this) I'm talkin' to you Il Duce...lol.

You can write up a storm, but you seem to have few "forensic" skills regarding the human condition.

Watch this fight carefully. I do mean carefully.....look at what is going on. There is no phony business going on. Liston is fully intending to hurt the man formerly known as Clay. AND he grows old in trying over the following rounds. He loses faith in himself.

It's clear to those on the east coast who can read the signs.

If you want further proof, do a forensic viewing of Liston's next fight AFTER the Clay/Ali fights. He brings the same set of tools, and he wins, but against a FAR LESS capable opponent.

View them....carefully.....all you need to know is there in front of your eyes.....if you know what to look for.

Il Duce...in this case it may not do you much good....since you already KNOW what happened.

It is of course my job to see to it that the "SECRET" is kept.....so I am continuing to obfuscate....correct?

"Styles make fights" and Sonny Liston was made to order for Muhammad Ali.

When did a fighter with Liston's style ever bother Muhammad Ali?

It's a pretty well known assumption that Liston tried to do something to get some sh*t into Ali's eyes in the 1st bout, he still moved and survived the round, and went back to doing what he had to do after his eyes cleared up.

It doesn't matter if Ali would've "knocked out" Liston if Liston had came out for the 7th round. For whatever reason, Liston didn't, he gave up on himself and knew that if he couldn't beat Ali after blinding him with some sh*t then he couldn't beat him at all. He quit out of frustration and probably feeling tired Like Duran did in the Leonard rematch.

He took a dive in the rematch. There's no doubt about that one to me.

If you're trying to sell me on, Liston took a dive in the 1st fight as well. I'm not buying that.

Il Duce wrote:Mr.. Gilga-Mesh,

Did you notice how many 'hand-held 'Creeper-Peeper' Cameras T-N-T Network were used
to broadcast that bout in Miami Beach to get all that close-up action in-between Rounds.

Spend some time and count them all,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Answer = '1'

Wasn't it amazing, that just at the right time, the Hand-Held Cameraman just happened to be
in the correct corner at the end of Round 4, and had a perfect view into Clay's corner, with
Cassius 'blinking' while gazing at the camera and chirping "Cut off my gloves".

Just Amazing,,,,,,,,,,that 'Lucky' Cameraman,,,,,,,what vision, what incite, imagine the luck..........

Il Duce wrote:Mr G,

And of course, you knew Charles 'Sonny' Liston very well, and he would never do anything
out of the ordinary.

And Robert Nilon and Jack Nilon, were just 'naive' businessmen from Baltimore.

They would never ever do anything just for the sake of money.

I like you Mr 'G', but don't go into 'deep water' that you know very little about.

I've watched both of these fights several times. I know just as much about them as you, or anyone else. The fight's don't change upon multiple viewing.

Il Duce wrote:Beside the fight in Miami Beach in February 1964,

What can you tell us about the October 1963 Fight Contract meeting held in Louisville, Kentucky -
between Gordon Davidson, William Faversham, Robert Nilon, Jack Nilon and Garland Sherry.

Jack sh*t, but you've already shown in the past that the facts you come up with are unverifiable so I'd say you can't tell me anything about them either. Nothing you didn't make up anyhow.

The first fight I would say was more of a dive than the second. The second fight was just a fucked up mess from the get-go. Bad refereeing, bad suggestions from Nat Fleischer at ringside telling Walcott that Liston was on the canvas longer than 10 seconds when Nat wasnt even the official time keeper, etc. Liston got up off the canvas and they commenced fighting and Walcott then stops the fight. It was a bullshit call by Walcott, when that happens its too late to stop a contest, your window for stopping it sailed by you several seconds ago.

I've said repeatedly that I think the 2nd fight was not on the level so I don't know why the need to say "both fights were legitimate"

This is not wrestling and Ali/Clay was not particularly popular going into the Liston fight. A lot of people were hoping Liston would shut his smartass mouth.

HomicideHenry wrote:The first fight I would say was more of a dive than the second. The second fight was just a fucked up mess from the get-go. Bad refereeing, bad suggestions from Nat Fleischer at ringside telling Walcott that Liston was on the canvas longer than 10 seconds when Nat wasnt even the official time keeper, etc. Liston got up off the canvas and they commenced fighting and Walcott then stops the fight. It was a bullshit call by Walcott, when that happens its too late to stop a contest, your window for stopping it sailed by you several seconds ago.

I agree the 2nd fight was a clusterf*ck. Worst attempt to make a dive look legitimate I've ever seen. I'm amazed that Liston was in a few movies considering how horrible his acting skills apparently were

I don't think the 1st Liston fight was a dive, I'd like to see some reasons why you guys are so adamant about this.

"Dive" has several meanings.

As long as we all understand this was a "dive" to avoid a beating...I'm good with either of the matches being called dives....sure...Liston could have come back for more I suppose. But in his head....he was "hash".

I don't think Sonny was "in league" with anyone. He just melted down as a man. The only difference between Liston vs Clay, and Chavez vs Whitaker was that Chavez did not believe he was being beaten, and kept his self image, FOR THE DURATION while being whipped like child. Liston could not face this, if he COULD have taken his beating for the duration....who knows perhaps he would have gotten the same PRIZE Chavez did for simply "hanging in there". lol.

A fighters ego (even the weaker willed fighter)...is what it is. Very few can be bought. I don't think Liston was one of those few.

The thing that actually meant something to Liston was the "recognition" of being champion. But in his mind he could not hold to this wish when he encountered the fighter formerly known as Cassius.

Seriously Il Duce, your "El Loone'" When it comes to this subject matter.

I don't think anyone is really buying what you're selling, but I have to say, your fiction is often every bit as good as your non fictional research. In terms of entertainment value.

Though I have heard it confuses some, I am always aware of which "mode" you are in.

You really think Sonny had no self pride? Is that your premise here?

You just have to make nothing out of him in order to explain how the fighter formerly known as Cassius could possibly beat him?

Don't need to answer this one. Liston was a very good fighter, he just did not have a Chavez style rugged psyche. As long has Liston believed in himself, he could go forward quite well. But he could be robbed of this belief, and then he went south quickly.

You could take Chavez and transplant his "id" into a 98 pound woman, and she/he would likely beat down you, AND two of your best friends like you all owed her money.

Sometimes toughness is mentally embedded.

And the Ali hate train keeps rolling along.

What next Il Duce? Tell us why else Ali isn't the man everyone thinks he is.

Nonsense Doozer

Sonny Liston attained championship status, this pleased him, he was proud of this achievement.

He did this greatly on his own. Through his own talent, skill, hard work and determination.

And he was good enough to manhandle many of his opponents.

He was not going to let this thing he had achieved be lost due to the whim of another person.

However, he was no match for his opponents determination in this case.

Nobody's ever confused Sonny with a saint. Even boxing historians often talk about his mob connections and sh*t.

I don't doubt that he was "ungrateful", but it's not uncommon to hear that kinda stuff from a "former" manager or promoter. Most business relationships in Boxing end on a bad note.

[quotabout Duce"]

scallum wrote:Ali beats him regardless if he takes dive or not. Too fast and big with grest Jab and chin

Whether Cassius could beat Sonny, in a 'real fight' will never be known.

The 'Nilon Brothers' {Advisors for Sonny Liston} were looking for 'two' big money bouts with Sonny Boy,
before dumping him.

After the 'rematch' with Floyd Patterson in 1963, the next bout was supposed to be against Ingemar Johansson
for September 1963 in Philadelphia, and one following with Cassius Clay for 1964.

Suggested bouts with Harold Johnson, {rematch with} Eddie Machen, Ernie Terrell and a {third bout with} Cleveland Williams
all fell way below the projected $$$ Gate estimations.

Some 'BOZOS' even tossed around a 'third bout' with Floyd Patterson.[/quote]
what about the Round Liston team cheated and put sum stuff on his gloves to blind Ali? Seems like team Liston was trying to win the fight , just came across a much superior boxer

As long as this "Hoax" is based on Sonny's internal personal weakness.....then that word can be utilized.

Verbage.....it's what's for dinner.

Sonny perhaps could not be bought, but was he possibly open to rental arrangements?