BoxRec

It seems to me that Duran tends to get a pass from BoxRec posters for some losses.

Duran after Leonard I seems to be forgiven pretty much all of his losses. He was above his natural weight, he didn't train, his mind wasn't on the job, he was old etc etc.

Anyone else agree, disagree?

No more than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ezzard Charles. When he left Welterweight he was 78-2, anything else was just icing. Fighters reach a point where there is no backwards in their historical ranking. Mayweather, pac & Marquez are there right now.

Well it depends...

I mean he wasn't in good shape most of the time. That's his own fault of course.

Like Toney he was fighting at weights way too high because he wasn't living the life. He wasn't dedicated in his eating and drinking habits. And he needed the money.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No more than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ezzard Charles. When he left Welterweight he was 78-2, anything else was just icing. Fighters reach a point where there is no backwards in their historical ranking. Mayweather, pac & Marquez are there right now.

Exactly.

Duran did not fear defeat. He went where the money was.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No more than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ezzard Charles. When he left Welterweight he was 78-2, anything else was just icing. Fighters reach a point where there is no backwards in their historical ranking. Mayweather, pac & Marquez are there right now.

Do you think Duran gets a pass for quitting in Leonard II?

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No more than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ezzard Charles. When he left Welterweight he was 78-2, anything else was just icing. Fighters reach a point where there is no backwards in their historical ranking. Mayweather, pac & Marquez are there right now.

Do you think Duran gets a pass for quitting in Leonard II?

No, he gets slammed for it constantly. I don't think he gets a pass for anything. One of the greatest ever and he is rated as such.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No more than Sugar Ray Robinson or Ezzard Charles. When he left Welterweight he was 78-2, anything else was just icing. Fighters reach a point where there is no backwards in their historical ranking. Mayweather, pac & Marquez are there right now.

Do you think Duran gets a pass for quitting in Leonard II?

No, he gets slammed for it constantly.

I was really asking if you give him a pass for quitting?

He got slaughtered for losing to Leonard.

Pretty much ruined his relationship with Arcel. His fans turned against him. He was depressed for years after that. He didn't really understand what he'd done. In the moment he didn't realise he was cashing in all his chips...all the greatness was gone.

Duran was a laughing stock for a large chunk of the 1980s. Magazines often reported how huge he was in the commentary box and refused to be filmed. Every comeback fight was met with derision.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: Do you think Duran gets a pass for quitting in Leonard II?

No, he gets slammed for it constantly.

I was really asking if you give him a pass for quitting?

Nope, he lost the fight.

How about the Benitez fight for instance ? The reality many Duran fans won't accept there, is that there guy simply got outboxed by an opponent who was also above his best weight and closer to the end of his career. So the excuse is, Duran just wasn't focused.

Of course not, that's what non fighting fight fans tend to not understand, a bad day at the office for every othr sportsman is overlooked, but a true fighter, that'll fight any one, any where and never pull out of a fight, a bad day at the office means he was all hype/never tested bum/shot or not in the top 100 all timers.
Fvck, Duran was a world champion, a true world champion, dominating his division and defending it, before moving divisions and doing the same, he had more than today's standard of 25 fights and took on the best of the divisions he moved into. His losses, to me, show what true fighter he was. If the stars weren't aligned and he woke up with a virus, and his opponent couldn't be fvcked making weight etc. he still got in the ring and give the crowd what they wanted.

I see more people complaining about excuses for the benitez fight than actual excuses from Duran fans. That was a brilliant performance from Wilfred. Nothing Duran could do, win or lose, at 154 or 160 would constitute him at his best. That's simply a fact.

And this, people deride the loser of a match, instead of revering the victor, something I see too often on here is people forget, in a great fight, no one loses, especially the fight fans.

Duran is a polarising character…or he was back in the day. Seen as a mean and dirty fighter his image was at odds with many fans.

So when you watch Duran fight Leonard in Montreal…or beat Buchanan…or DeJesus…Lampkin…Mamby etc… And then you watch him lose to Benitez he quite obviously is not operating at the same level.

Yes he lost. And he wasn’t at his best.

They are both true statements.

It’s amazing, at least to me, that he went from being a high energy swarmer in his prime…to a smooth counterpuncher…

Anyway, if I said Benitez was a better fighter than Hamsho and lost because he was old and too small nobody would claim I was making excuses for him...

His greatness isn't being questioned, just the supposed night and day difference between him being focused or not focused.

You must be confusing Duran with Zab Judah.

Benitez was simply better at that stage of their careers, particularly at 154. I don't even necessarily think Duran came into that one out of shape (relative to that point in his career, anyway). Look at his body. He simply didn't have the legs anymore to get in on Benitez they way he could've in the past.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Nothing Duran could do, win or lose, at 154 or 160 would constitute him at his best. That's simply a fact.

But you could say the same for Benitez.

I think after certain points in a career the degree to which losses count as a "decrease in stock" diminishes over time, to the point where (for example, Charles after the Marciano fights or Tyson post-Holyfield fights) it becomes practically nothing.

Based on their prior performances, I certainly wouldn't put Floyd or Marquez in that 'nothing' category now (particularly Floyd . . if JMM loses to Bradley that will have a negligible effect on his ledger IMO), nor would I for every Duran fight post Leonard. Duran post Hearns? Those losses I would say have no value on stock.

So in your eyes the Hearns fight lowers Duran's all time standing? We obviously rate fighters completely different. Hell, I rate plenty of losses over wins.

As for Floyd, losing a fight at 37 years old wouldn't change a thing for me other than setting his ceiling. Marquez losing to Bradley at 40? Negligible? Just a minor deduction? I find that hilarious.

I'm trying to think of an all-time great who hasn't been excused his losses...going by what seems to be defined as an excuse.

I think Lou Ambers deserves deeper evaluation of his KO losses to Lew Jenkins, which are typically passed off as the latter just having his number.

Ezzard wrote:I'm trying to think of an all-time great who hasn't been excused his losses...going by what seems to be defined as an excuse.

It's also ironic that the people up in arms about excuses for Duran are the first ones to utter the hilariously excuse riddled phrase.."He fought the wrong fight".

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I'm trying to think of an all-time great who hasn't been excused his losses...going by what seems to be defined as an excuse.

It's also ironic that the people up in arms about excuses for Duran are the first ones to utter the hilariously excuse riddled phrase.."He fought the wrong fight".

In today's world his win over Ernesto Marcel might have been for some title or other... That was at what? Featherweight? A guy who would beat Arguello?

And we're not supposed to point out that Duran getting beaten 16 years later at middleweight by Robbie Sims might not be a true representation of the fighter... Seems harsh to me.

I love that fight, he and Robbie both did some great stuff in extreme heat.

My main memory from that fight was how every magazine said it was a disgrace that Duran was still being allowed to box. The commentator, probably Reg Gutteridge (one of the greats), saying how Roberto should retire.

Duran had neither the industry (like he used to have) or the pop in his shots to really impose himself.