BoxRec

Dempsey comes off as a real nice guy. I do find it interesting That Gene Tunney picked Dempsey to beat Joe Louis and the author picks him to beat just about any heavyweight to ever live.

That book couldnt have been more biased if it was written by Dempsey himself.

ThatOne wrote:Dempsey comes off as a real nice guy. I do find it interesting That Gene Tunney picked Dempsey to beat Joe Louis and the author picks him to beat just about any heavyweight to ever live.

I wonder why, Tunney would make such a prediction? I've thought about it, but no... I just can't figure it out!

klompton wrote:That book couldnt have been more biased if it was written by Dempsey himself.

It was a good read nonetheless.

Dempsey was the greatest of his his time. I'm not convinced he was the greatest of all time.

Every biography or autobiography about Jack Dempsey that I have read is inaccurate or has some serious omissions. Roger Kahn's isn't an exception.

- Chuck Johnston

Chuck1052 wrote:Every biography or autobiography about Jack Dempsey that I have read is inaccurate or has some serious omissions. Roger Kahn's isn't an exception.

- Chuck Johnston

What were the major inaccuracies?

I enjoyed the book, Dempsey comes off a a good guy, but the author was clearly infatuated with his subject.

Anyone ever read Jack Dempsey & The Roaring 20's?

I found it to be a bit biased in many aspects of Dempsey's life.

ThatOne wrote:

Chuck1052 wrote:Every biography or autobiography about Jack Dempsey that I have read is inaccurate or has some serious omissions. Roger Kahn's isn't an exception.

- Chuck Johnston

What were the major inaccuracies?

I enjoyed the book, Dempsey comes off a a good guy, but the author was clearly infatuated with his subject.

At the time of his first bout with Fireman Jim Flynn, Jack Dempsey had a manager named A. J. Auerbach, who is never mentioned in any biography or autobiography of Dempsey that I have read. According to news reports, Dempsey paid Auerbach back a substantial sum of money after he became the heavyweight champion. When Auerbach's son, Herman, was a fighter based in the Los Angeles area during the late 1920s, Dempsey made an effort to see him in action. At the time, Dempsey's past connection to A. J. Auerbach was mentioned in the Los Angeles Times.

During his first bout with Flynn, Dempsey was flattened and counted out in short order. There was quite a bit of speculation that the fix was in for Dempsey to go into the tank just before the fighters got into the ring. This is according to an account in a Salt Lake newspaper. In the biographies and autobiographies of Dempsey that I have read, the descriptions of events surrounding the first bout between Flynn and Dempsey were inaccurate, to put it mildly.

It is my belief that there wasn't much research done about the early part of Dempsey's
career by people who later wrote biographies about him. Such authors may have used major newspaper archives, but not newspapers in small communities where Dempsey fought.

- Chuck Johnston

I read that book a few years ago; thought it was OK. I didn't remember the statement Tunney made, but I am not surprised. Dempsey used to be more highly thought of a long time ago than he is today. In 1950, Dempsey was voted the Fighter of the first half century.
Who would win between Dempsey and Louis used to be a question that fans used to argue about a lot.

Jack Sharkey (the only man to fight them both) said he thought Dempsey would win.

It does have some colorful embellishment but in the world of boxing biographies one can do far worse.

Chuck1052 wrote:During his first bout with Flynn, Dempsey was flattened and counted out in short order. There was quite a bit of speculation that the fix was in for Dempsey to go into the tank just before the fighters got into the ring. This is according to an account in a Salt Lake newspaper.

Which newspaper is that?

It's not mentioned in any book that the return match between them was considered a fix by some Chicago reporters.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I read that book a few years ago; thought it was OK. I didn't remember the statement Tunney made, but I am not surprised. Dempsey used to be more highly thought of a long time ago than he is today. In 1950, Dempsey was voted the Fighter of the first half century.
Who would win between Dempsey and Louis used to be a question that fans used to argue about a lot.

Jack Sharkey (the only man to fight them both) said he thought Dempsey would win.

I haven't returned the book to the library yet. Tunney's prediction is on pg.437. Tunney also says he takes the Brown Bomber out in the first round.

dempseyfire wrote:It does have some colorful embellishment but in the world of boxing biographies one can do far worse.

Dempsey comes off real well in the book. I liked his empathy with the "little guy".

Do you rate Dempsey as high as Kahn on fantasy top ten lists ?

Senya13 wrote:

Chuck1052 wrote:During his first bout with Flynn, Dempsey was flattened and counted out in short order. There was quite a bit of speculation that the fix was in for Dempsey to go into the tank just before the fighters got into the ring. This is according to an account in a Salt Lake newspaper.

Which newspaper is that?

It's not mentioned in any book that the return match between them was considered a fix by some Chicago reporters.

There was plenty of talk about the fix being in for the first bout between Fireman Jim Flynn and Jack Dempsey, not the second one. I believe that the Salt Lake Tribune was the contemporary source.

- Chuck Johnston

There's no talk of a fix in next-day Tribune report.

Chicago Journal wrote on the second fight:
"The match was a farce. From its odor it is strongly reminiscent of the Gans-McGovern fiasco which stopped boxing in Chicago.
"Six out of seven fight critics here declare it the worst thing pulled off in the fight line in years."

What about the rumours that Dempseys gloves were loaded when he beat Willard?... I ve always been intrigued by this. One of the things that bothers me is the extent of Willards injuries (broken cheekbone, eyesocket, smashed teeth) in just 2 rounds of 'fighting'. As far as I know Dempsey never inflicted anything like this sort of damage in any of his other fights (broken bones etc!). And there was that strange incident of Dempsey leaving the ring early supposedly thinking the fight was over, and having to be called back by Kearns etc. The more I've looked at this fight over the years the more something doesn't smell right about it. Willard always believed that Dempsey's gloves were loaded that night. I'm just curious as to what other people think about this and if there is any information out there that throws any light upon it...

Chuck1052 wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Chuck1052 wrote:Every biography or autobiography about Jack Dempsey that I have read is inaccurate or has some serious omissions. Roger Kahn's isn't an exception.

- Chuck Johnston

What were the major inaccuracies?

I enjoyed the book, Dempsey comes off a a good guy, but the author was clearly infatuated with his subject.

At the time of his first bout with Fireman Jim Flynn, Jack Dempsey had a manager named A. J. Auerbach, who is never mentioned in any biography or autobiography of Dempsey that I have read. According to news reports, Dempsey paid Auerbach back a substantial sum of money after he became the heavyweight champion. When Auerbach's son, Herman, was a fighter based in the Los Angeles area during the late 1920s, Dempsey made an effort to see him in action. At the time, Dempsey's past connection to A. J. Auerbach was mentioned in the Los Angeles Times.

During his first bout with Flynn, Dempsey was flattened and counted out in short order. There was quite a bit of speculation that the fix was in for Dempsey to go into the tank just before the fighters got into the ring. This is according to an account in a Salt Lake newspaper. In the biographies and autobiographies of Dempsey that I have read, the descriptions of events surrounding the first bout between Flynn and Dempsey were inaccurate, to put it mildly.

It is my belief that there wasn't much research done about the early part of Dempsey's
career by people who later wrote biographies about him. Such authors may have used major newspaper archives, but not newspapers in small communities where Dempsey fought.

- Chuck Johnston

The Dempsey-Flynn bout is well documented and there is nothing pointing to a fix until three years later when a series of articles was published about dempsey while he was champion painting him in glowing tones and attempted to cast doubt on the result. In reality some people just cant accept that Dempsey was not bullet proof, particularly at this point in his career:

"Flynn landed a terrific left to his opponent's jaw in the first round after 25 seconds of fierce fighting. Dempsey was insensible for several minutes and when brought back from the land of nod he evidently thought he was still in the prize ring and attempted to slug his seconds." -Salt Lake City Desert Evening News

"With Dempsey still bent over and walking toward Flynn, both forearms and gloves covering his face, Flynn rushed again. The Pueblo battler gave Dempsey's head a quick shove toward his right and sent a short right hand hook through Dempsey's guard and straight to the point of the chin. He stepped back at the same instant and Jack went down face first in his gloves. It was all done in a flash, but those close to the west side of the ring could plainly see the punch and all grabbed their hats and coats for the bout was over before it had gotten started." - Salt Lake Telegram

"Those who have seen Dempsey fight
have always admired his ability to take
punishment, but usually the punishment
came in t he course-of a battle, and to
have it come all at once, like a bolt
of lightning, was too much for the local
scrapper. Perhaps Dempsey would have
made a better showing had he been able to
weather the going for three or four
rounds, but he certainly was hopeless
against the tornado which caught him
right at the start. During the few seconds
the fight I lasted Flynn made two attacks.
At the beginning he bent his head downward and
bored in, whaling away with both hands.
Then there was a wee bit of a lull, during
which thie referee tried to do some
separating, and next came the onslaught
with its two-blow finish."

-Salt Lake Tribune

There was some controversy about the show but this wasnt related to a supposed fix. It was because Jim Flynn wrangled with the promoter at the last minute for his money which held up the show. The preliminary was between two boys which caused some people concern and it was felt that the promoter was milking the public for every last dime.

fatcity69 wrote:What about the rumours that Dempseys gloves were loaded when he beat Willard?... I ve always been intrigued by this. One of the things that bothers me is the extent of Willards injuries (broken cheekbone, eyesocket, smashed teeth) in just 2 rounds of 'fighting'. As far as I know Dempsey never inflicted anything like this sort of damage in any of his other fights (broken bones etc!). And there was that strange incident of Dempsey leaving the ring early supposedly thinking the fight was over, and having to be called back by Kearns etc. The more I've looked at this fight over the years the more something doesn't smell right about it. Willard always believed that Dempsey's gloves were loaded that night. I'm just curious as to what other people think about this and if there is any information out there that throws any light upon it...

Willard was not nearly that badly injured. Those reports were mistaken. I have interviews with several of his cornermen and all agree that the injurys were exaggerated. He was banged up pretty bad but didnt have the broken jaw, cheeck, etc.

The loaded gloves story got started after Dempsey looked so bad against Bill Brennan. Interestingly Jimmy Deforrest who trained Dempsey for that bout came out and said that he had wound Dempsey's hands with a special kind of gauze that hardened after a time (not the plaster of paris as has often been quoted). He stated he used the same gauze for Kid McCoy and explained this is why McCoy was able to get so many KOs. If you look at McCoys record and look at Dempsey's both have unusually high KO percentages for the times.

The following account of Jack Dempsey's loss to Fireman Jim Flynn was found in Dempsey's
autobiography, Dempsey, By the Man Himself, as told to Bob Considine and Bill Slocum:

About four hundred fans showed up the night of the fight to see one of the most famous fights of my life. Flynn knocked me out in two minutes of the first round. It was the only official knockout of my prize-fight career.

In the first minute of the fight he hit me with a right that put me on the deck. I came up groggy and he was waiting there over me, and down I went again when he hit me. I got up again and this time I was able to hold. But only for a few seconds. He knew how to get out of a clutch like that. He broke away, stepped back, threw a punch, and I was flat on my back a third time. When I got up I couldn't see him. He was behind me. I turned like a drunk, I guess, and he let me have while my eyes were trying to find him. I went down again.

As I got up to face Flynn, my brother Bernie, working in my corner, threw in the towel. When the fogs went away I cussed him, my own brother. "Why? Why? Why?" I kept yelling at him, like he had double-crossed me.

Bernie had an answer. "Because he'd've killed you with another punch," He said.


- Chuck Johnston

According to a biography by Randy Roberts, Jack Dempsey, The Manassa Mauler, the following happened in the first bout between Fireman Jim Flynn and Dempsey:

The fight did not take long: Flynn knocked Dempsey down several times before the bell rang to end the first round. Dempsey's brother, Bernie, who was acting as his manager, wisely threw in the towel. For the first and only time in his life, Dempsey suffered a technical knockout.

- Chuck Johnston

According to.harry carpenter whilst interviewing Willard, big Jess opened a draw containing a large bolt that he found on the floor after the fight...reckoned Dempsey had held it in his glove when he punched him....the old saying 'pull the other one its got bells on' comes to mind. Lol

According to Jack Dempsey's autobiography, Round by Round, which was written in collabation with Myron M. Stearns, Dempsey said that he didn't realize the importance of warming up before his first bout with Fireman Jim Flynn while Flynn did The book had the following description of the bout:

While I was still "cold," with the first round less than a minute old, he landed his right on my jaw so hard that I went down like an ox. Only my youth and stamina enabled me to get back on my feet before the count of ten.

Flynn had taken advantage of my inexperience by landing his bone-crusher during my initial attack, so that my own rush toward him gave added power to the blow. I had not been able to duck or side-step or pick the blow off.

When I got to my feet I tried to cover up, but Flynn tore after me and down I went again.
The blow wasn't so hard as the first one had been, since I wasn't rushing toward him when it landed, but it was hard enough. Down I went again.

Twice more the same thing happened. After each knockdown I got back on my feet just in time to catch another sock and go down again.

Then, with nearly a minute of the round left to go, Bernie threw in the towel.

I had lost by a first-round knockout.

It was a stunning setback. Instead of vaulting into the ranks of recognized fighters by beating Jim Flynn, I had allowed myself to be pushed still further back.

"When that towel went into the ring, you chucked away my chances of ever being champion," I told Bernie bitterly in the dressing room.

"You'd never be champion if he'd kill you," was Bernie's answer. He tried to cheer me up. "A man can lose one fight, even by a first-round knockout, and still go on to be champion."

- Chuck Johnston

According to another autobiography, Dempsey, by Jack Dempsey with Barbara Piattelli Dempsey, the following took place in Dempsey's first bout with Fireman Jim Flynn:

From the minute the bell clanged, I knew I was in trouble. I had made the mistake of not warming up properly. What a dumb oversight on my part-it probably cost me the fight! I should have shadowboxed in the back room! I should have done this and I should have done that! I kept berating myself whe-crack!-blam!-down I went. I barely managed to get up when-crack!-down I went again. I got floored a few more times, and the worst part of it was that it was my own fault! I was just getting my second wind when Bernie threw the towel in.

"What's the matter with you, gone daffy or something? What'd you have to go and stop the fight for? What'd you do to me, Bernie?"

"What was I supposed to do? Stand around and watch you get your block knocked off?"

"Sure, it's my hide. You should have let me go on!"

- Chuck Johnston

According to Roger Kahn's biography of Jack Dempsey, A Flame of Pure Fire, Jack Dempsey and the Roaring '20s, there was the following description of Dempsey's first bout with Fireman Jim Flynn:

On February 13, 1917, Dempsey was knocked out for the only time in his career. He said afterward that he was not fit to fight. While scratching out money as a pin boy in a bowling alley a few days earlier, he hurt his right hand when another pin boy carelessly dropped a bowling ball on it. Dempsey took the bout against Fireman Jim Flynn because, hurt or not, he and his new wife (Maxine Cates) desperately neeeded money. With his mashed fingers puffed and painful, he was a one-handed boxer up against an old pro. Flynn punched him silly within two minutes.

Maxine told another story. She chattered in saloons in Utah and later in San Francisco about "what really happened." The truth, she said, was that Dempsey threw the fight.
"They offered him more to lose than to win and he took it." Dempsey denied it, just as he denied that Maxine's chattering had anything to do with her dislocated jaw.

- Chuck Johnston

In regards to an alleged "fix" in the first bout between Fireman Jim Flynn and Jack Dempsey, I seriously doubted that Dempsey went into the tank after reading a report about the bout from a Salt Lake newspaper. In a nutshell, it appeared that Flynn knocked out Dempsey legitimately with at least one very hard blow. At the same time, I feel that I should go back and read the same report again to see if there was any mention about an alleged attempt to persuade Dempsey "go into the tank."

- Chuck Johnston