BoxRec

OK, so I try to stay out of these anti-Ali threads....

But he was very righteous to say this, and unlike all the white kids and future leaders of this country who either ran to Canada or used Daddy's influence to get in the National Guard, Ali stood for what he believed and did his time for it.

I had no quarrel with the Viet Cong either, still don't. The fact is Vietnam admired us and their first constitution was based on ours. American imperialism forced us to go along for two decades in an immoral war against a bunch of rice farmers who just wanted to be independent of white people.

What Ali did was very brave. It might not have been the same as seeing combat, but it was way more brave than what little Bush, Sylvester Stallone or Bill Clinton or tens of thousands of others did. He took a stand and he made an argument that many black leaders were trying to make at the time.

And none of what I said above even begins to discuss the fact that the black mortality rate in Vietnam was exponentially higher than the white rate which clearly says our leaders had decided that black troops were more expendable than white. Think about that for a moment. The leaders of a country decided to kill black men disproportionately to whites just to make a war more popular. That is the sickest kind of racism because it isn't even motivated by race it's motivated by the fact that you have the power to use the race for your gain.

You wanna get on Ali for taunting Patterson or for any number of show business decisions like that I'll stay quiet. I may not agree with you but I get it, some of it could seem to be too much. But when it comes to Vietnam, and the way we abused not just the Vietnamese but Black Americans during that war, man Ali is a hero.

Vietnam was a proxy war, with two great powers destroying a country to get at each other. It was better to stay.

Il Duce wrote:It was reported by the New York Times,

This statement was first used by Cassius Clay on March 16, 1967.

A look at 'History' reveals that maybe, just maybe Cassius Clay, now using his new
name of Muhammad Ali was attempting to side-step 'Induction into the U.S. Military'.

Admittedly, not the 'Smartest in Brains, but the Greatest in the Ring', suddenly Cassius
was coming up with 'witty' statements and 'catchy' phrases.

"Man, I Got No Quarrel With Them Viet Cong"

Yes, any easy and witty statement to make, but who else was chirping those 'ear-popping'
tunes.




http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... m9DQD5SXVw

The only people you are going to convince that the Viet Nam War was sane and wise are in a insane asylum.

A contemporaneous account which is always the most powerful:

MADISON DAVIS LACY: How did you reconcile your newfound, if you will, growing affection for Ali, when he refused induction into the service? How did you feel about that?
EDWIN POPE: I was very upset about it, personally and editorially. I didn't think it was right for Ali to refuse induction when other people were over there fighting and, and dying in Vietnam. Remember now that this was before we all knew what a tragic, just, ah, transcendentally horrible mistake Vietnam was. At that time it was of, almost as much of a situation of patriotism, much like World War II. Only in retrospect did we see what a terrible thing it was. This was before we saw that. So, I was very resentful of it and so were quite a few other people.
MADISON DAVIS LACY: All right, let's stop down.
QUESTION 15

MADISON DAVIS LACY: You were saying in pre-interview that you didn't think that Ali's refusal to be inducting--inducted had anything to do with his religion--
EDWIN POPE: I felt that, ah, Ali used, ah, the religious issue just to keep from going to Vietnam. I must say I considered it a pretty natural reaction. Nobody wants to be shot at, and, um, I just didn't think the religious issue was, that he was genuinely refusing induction because of that. Ah, people, other people were taking off of, what he did was, just a little variation on what other people were doing. They were taking off for Canada and, ah, dodging the draft that way. Ah, I've never been sure of exactly why Ali didn't go in the service. I'm inclined to think I was overly harsh in my assessment of it.



http://digital.wustl.edu/e/eii/eiiweb/p ... npope.html

That one

Just curious, I like the balance you add to the discussion, and have a question or two for you.

1. Do you imagine that a single word you have contributed has changed a single cell of grey matter in Il Duce's head?

2. Have you learned anything from Il Duce?

The reason I ask is this. I also wonder

a. if people come here to exchange ideas and are willing to be changed by what is shared.
b. if people already KNOW it all, and are simply dropping in to help others KNOW the(ir) truth
c. if people come in without much knowledge and imagine they will find an educator here
d. and most important just how many people here are wondering where the hell their beer went?
as I have suspected for some time now, that one of the contributors here has been consuming more than their share.

Il Duce wrote:Davey Mac,

You're being very 'selective' in your argument.

It's easy to grab numbers and play with 'percentages' to make a case.

That's what we call 'massaging the books'.

You make they typical case and argument for Cassius Clay's excuse to
avoid induction, when the same argument can be made that he just didn't want
to go into the United States Army to disrupt his wonderful life here in America.

Isn't it just possible, that he was looking for an 'excuse', any excuse not be drafted.

Il Duce, that's what most of your charges live on "possibilities" but that works both ways....isn't it possible he had the courage of his convictions? So list the possibilities...and just wonder...rather than postulate in public that "you know."

It is your postulation in public that is concerning to some......this is the sort of thing proper folks do in the privacy of their own homes.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Davey Mac,

You're being very 'selective' in your argument.

It's easy to grab numbers and play with 'percentages' to make a case.

That's what we call 'massaging the books'.

You make they typical case and argument for Cassius Clay's excuse to
avoid induction, when the same argument can be made that he just didn't want
to go into the United States Army to disrupt his wonderful life here in America.

Isn't it just possible, that he was looking for an 'excuse', any excuse not be drafted.

Il Duce, that's what most of your charges live on "possibilities" but that works both ways....isn't it possible he had the courage of his convictions? So list the possibilities...and just wonder...rather than postulate in public that "you know."

It is your postulation in public that is concerning to some......this is the sort of thing proper folks do in the privacy of their own homes.

A few random thoughts

1) Gore Vidal said WW ll was the last good war, it was unambiguous; Hitler, Tojo and Il Duce were evil personified. We did get stuck with an equally evil Stalin as an ally so it wasn't totally unambiguous.

2) I don't think the Viet Nam War was as much evil as it was stupid.

3) I'm sure a lot of factors went into Ali's decisions.

4) How many elite athletes or celebrities saw active combat in Viet Nam or even WW !! ? Not many I presume.

That one.

Just curious, I like the balance you add to the discussion, and have a question or two for you.

"1. Do you imagine that a single word you have contributed has changed a single cell of grey matter in Il Duce's head? "

No, perhaps maybe at a subconscious level

"2. Have you learned anything from Il Duce? '

Yeah, about the old timers, but I'm sure it has the patented Il Duce spin.

The reason I ask is this. I also wonder



"b. if people already KNOW it all, and are simply dropping in to help others KNOW the(ir) truth."

I think people's world views are firmly entrenched. I think I still see the world through the prism I did at , say, fourteen years old. My heroes are still the same; the martyred Kennedy brothers, Muhammad Ali, and Dr, King. And I have books and books about their foibles and victories and my opinion hasn't budged.

"c. if people come in without much knowledge and imagine they will find an educator here
d. and most important just how many people here are wondering where the hell their beer went?
as I have suspected for some time now, that one of the contributors here has been consuming more than their share.[/quote]"

There are some really , really, smart posters here with a lot more boxing knowledge than me and I learn from them however I am confident that I have a fairly good grasp of Muhammad Ali and his times.

yep...pretty much what I was thinkin' to. lol

ThatOne wrote:That one.

Just curious, I like the balance you add to the discussion, and have a question or two for you.

"1. Do you imagine that a single word you have contributed has changed a single cell of grey matter in Il Duce's head? "

No, perhaps maybe at a subconscious level

"2. Have you learned anything from Il Duce? '

Yeah, about the old timers, but I'm sure it has the patented Il Duce spin.

The reason I ask is this. I also wonder



"b. if people already KNOW it all, and are simply dropping in to help others KNOW the(ir) truth."

I think people's world views are firmly entrenched. I think I still see the world through the prism I did at , say, fourteen years old. My heroes are still the same; the martyred Kennedy brothers, Muhammad Ali, and Dr, King. And I have books and books about their foibles and victories and my opinion hasn't budged.

"c. if people come in without much knowledge and imagine they will find an educator here
d. and most important just how many people here are wondering where the hell their beer went?
as I have suspected for some time now, that one of the contributors here has been consuming more than their share.

"

There are some really , really, smart posters here with a lot more boxing knowledge than me and I learn from them however I am confident that I have a fairly good grasp of Muhammad Ali and his times.[/quote]









"I think I still see the world through the prism I did at, say fourteen years old." ThatOne



Yes, I gathered that about you quite some time ago.

Don't take that as an insult. It is simply a deduction I had made. I have quite a few friends that are the same way.

I'm from a military family....but it's not always a matter of "my country right or wrong"

When we are wrong...we should strive to evolve.

Vietnam was not a well advised conflict.

Il Duce and Yancey...do you guys disagree with this?

Even if you...or "we" do.....I don't think Ali's stance was criminal at this point. Didnt we offer forgiveness for those who "ran"?

Not sure on my history on that one, but I thought we did.

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:It was reported by the New York Times,

This statement was first used by Cassius Clay on March 16, 1967.

A look at 'History' reveals that maybe, just maybe Cassius Clay, now using his new
name of Muhammad Ali was attempting to side-step 'Induction into the U.S. Military'.

Admittedly, not the 'Smartest in Brains, but the Greatest in the Ring', suddenly Cassius
was coming up with 'witty' statements and 'catchy' phrases.

"Man, I Got No Quarrel With Them Viet Cong"

Yes, any easy and witty statement to make, but who else was chirping those 'ear-popping'
tunes.




http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... m9DQD5SXVw

The only people you are going to convince that the Viet Nam War was sane and wise are in a insane asylum.

Or they were killed in Vietnam

I jus don't get what some people think Ali would have done if he had of been inducted, He was never going to war he knew that. So what exactly did he have to gain by refusing induction?

p4p1 wrote:I jus don't get what some people think Ali would have done if he had of been inducted, He was never going to war he knew that. So what exactly did he have to gain by refusing induction?

Taking a stand against an unjust war. For the greater good of his people, and people everywhere that believed he was doing the right thing.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm from a military family....but it's not always a matter of "my country right or wrong"

When we are wrong...we should strive to evolve.

Vietnam was not a well advised conflict.

Il Duce and Yancey...do you guys disagree with this?

Even if you...or "we" do.....I don't think Ali's stance was criminal at this point. Didnt we offer forgiveness for those who "ran"?

Not sure on my history on that one, but I thought we did.

Buzz, I long ago made an internal pledge to try to be apolitical on message boards, but I think the gentleman that advised "beware of foreign entanglements" in his farewell address was very wise.

gilgamesh wrote:

p4p1 wrote:I jus don't get what some people think Ali would have done if he had of been inducted, He was never going to war he knew that. So what exactly did he have to gain by refusing induction?

Taking a stand against an unjust war. For the greater good of his people, and people everywhere that believed he was doing the right thing.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Edmund Burke

I know why he did it and I agree with what he did but the people that claim he was scared etc I just want to know what these people think he had to gain.

The whole idea that he was scared is just silly. He knew full well he wasn't going to get shot at. The US has never let celebrities get shot at unless they were pilots.

He probably wouldn't have even been sent to Vietnam unless it was USO. He'd have been stationed here and given some physical coaching job. No way were we letting the Viet Cong kill Muhammad Ali the public relations hit would have been massive. Ali and the people around him were smart enough to know that.

So his choice was a) take a cushy army job for a couple of years or b) go to jail.
He chose to go to jail because he disagreed with the policies of his government. That's the American way.

yancey wrote:

ThatOne wrote:That one.

Just curious, I like the balance you add to the discussion, and have a question or two for you.

"1. Do you imagine that a single word you have contributed has changed a single cell of grey matter in Il Duce's head? "

No, perhaps maybe at a subconscious level

"2. Have you learned anything from Il Duce? '

Yeah, about the old timers, but I'm sure it has the patented Il Duce spin.

The reason I ask is this. I also wonder



"b. if people already KNOW it all, and are simply dropping in to help others KNOW the(ir) truth."

I think people's world views are firmly entrenched. I think I still see the world through the prism I did at , say, fourteen years old. My heroes are still the same; the martyred Kennedy brothers, Muhammad Ali, and Dr, King. And I have books and books about their foibles and victories and my opinion hasn't budged.

"c. if people come in without much knowledge and imagine they will find an educator here
d. and most important just how many people here are wondering where the hell their beer went?
as I have suspected for some time now, that one of the contributors here has been consuming more than their share.

"

There are some really , really, smart posters here with a lot more boxing knowledge than me and I learn from them however I am confident that I have a fairly good grasp of Muhammad Ali and his times.

"I think I still see the world through the prism I did at, say fourteen years old." ThatOne



Yes, I gathered that about you quite some time ago.

Don't take that as an insult. It is simply a deduction I had made. I have quite a few friends that are the same way.[/quote]

There was a famous book a while back " All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten."

Il Duce wrote:Let's go back to the American Revolution

There is call for all citizens of the '13' Colonies to take up arms against Great Britain.

Cassius Clay is 'asked to enlist' and support the Rebellion.

Cassius Clay,,,,,,,,'Man, I Ain't Got No Quips Against Them Brits'.

The difference is the Revolutionary War was our war for independence and the Viet Nam War was Viet Nams' war for independence. Your analogy is flawed.

Il Duce wrote:No, my argument is not flawed.


Cassius Clay was out for himself..............

This from our #1 altruist I guess.

Please post your military record. I can almost understand this and certainly forgive this expressed position from a Jarhead...and would likely not want to fuss with you as I respect this opinion from those who laid there lives on the line. I get it. And just because I am one from this group who has forgiven, I give much leeway to my brothers who have not found it in their hearts to forgive.

And sometimes I am not forgiven for my leniency.

Either way, you should work on becoming forgiving. It's a great goal for those who still haven't mastered the art.

yancey wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:I'm from a military family....but it's not always a matter of "my country right or wrong"

When we are wrong...we should strive to evolve.

Vietnam was not a well advised conflict.

Il Duce and Yancey...do you guys disagree with this?

Even if you...or "we" do.....I don't think Ali's stance was criminal at this point. Didnt we offer forgiveness for those who "ran"?

Not sure on my history on that one, but I thought we did.

Buzz, I long ago made an internal pledge to try to be apolitical on message boards, but I think the gentleman that advised "beware of foreign entanglements" in his farewell address was very wise.

Yance, if your speaking of "Ike" Amen brother.

Il Duce wrote:No, my argument is not flawed.

It is cut with precision like a Surgeon uses his or her Scalpel.

Cassius Clay wasn't going to Vietnam, and he knew it.

This was a 'total and complete' ploy to try and get out of having career his put on hold for '2-Years'.

Many 'men and women' served our country in other ways, and not on a 'Military Base'.

The Ambulance Corps was an admirable effort to help injured U.S. Military, and as well as participating
as a 'volunteer' in the Army Hospitals.

Not once, did Cassius visit any U.S. Military Bases, just as a 'visitor'.

Cassius Clay was out for himself..............

He didn't want to lend his credibility which was enormous with the black and the young to that quagmire and get one more man or woman to be the "last person to die for a mistake."

What part of that don't you understand?


Or as one of the denizens of this board put it:

The whole idea that he was scared is just silly. He knew full well he wasn't going to get shot at. The US has never let celebrities get shot at unless they were pilots.

He probably wouldn't have even been sent to Vietnam unless it was USO. He'd have been stationed here and given some physical coaching job. No way were we letting the Viet Cong kill Muhammad Ali the public relations hit would have been massive. Ali and the people around him were smart enough to know that.

So his choice was a) take a cushy army job for a couple of years or b) go to jail.
He chose to go to jail because he disagreed with the policies of his government. That's the American way.

_daveymac

BoxBuzz wrote:

Il Duce wrote:No, my argument is not flawed.


Cassius Clay was out for himself..............

This from our #1 altruist I guess.

Please post your military record. I can almost understand this and certainly forgive this expressed position from a Jarhead...and would likely not want to fuss with you as I respect this opinion from those who laid there lives on the line. I get it. And just because I am one from this group who has forgiven, I give much leeway to my brothers who have not found it in their hearts to forgive.

And sometimes I am not forgiven for my leniency.

Either way, you should work on becoming forgiving. It's a great goal for those who still haven't mastered the art.

He's not a jarhead but he did spend five years in the Hanoi Hilton:

ThatOne wrote:

yancey wrote:

ThatOne wrote:That one.

Just curious, I like the balance you add to the discussion, and have a question or two for you.

"1. Do you imagine that a single word you have contributed has changed a single cell of grey matter in Il Duce's head? "

No, perhaps maybe at a subconscious level

"2. Have you learned anything from Il Duce? '

Yeah, about the old timers, but I'm sure it has the patented Il Duce spin.

The reason I ask is this. I also wonder



"b. if people already KNOW it all, and are simply dropping in to help others KNOW the(ir) truth."

I think people's world views are firmly entrenched. I think I still see the world through the prism I did at , say, fourteen years old. My heroes are still the same; the martyred Kennedy brothers, Muhammad Ali, and Dr, King. And I have books and books about their foibles and victories and my opinion hasn't budged.

"c. if people come in without much knowledge and imagine they will find an educator here
d. and most important just how many people here are wondering where the hell their beer went?
as I have suspected for some time now, that one of the contributors here has been consuming more than their share.

"

There are some really , really, smart posters here with a lot more boxing knowledge than me and I learn from them however I am confident that I have a fairly good grasp of Muhammad Ali and his times.

"I think I still see the world through the prism I did at, say fourteen years old." ThatOne



Yes, I gathered that about you quite some time ago.

Don't take that as an insult. It is simply a deduction I had made. I have quite a few friends that are the same way.

There was a famous book a while back " All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten."


[/quote]



So you graduated kindergarten at age 14, eh?

And you're a Ali fan, right?

The picture becomes even clearer.

DD

"Mankind must put an end to war, or war will put an end to mankind...War will exist until that distant day when the conscientious objector enjoys the same reputation and prestige that the warrior does today."

-John F. Kennedy

Thirty fifth president of the United States and World War ll war hero