BoxRec

George Foreman 2.0
Wlad Klitschko
Vitali Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Larry Holmes 2.0
Gerry Cooney

George Foreman 2.0...L KO8/9
Wlad Klitschko...L KO 10
Vitali Klitschko...L UD
Lennox Lewis...L KO7/8
Larry Holmes 2.0...L UD
Gerry Cooney...W UD

mercman wrote:Which Joe Bugner are we talking about here - a young Bugner; a late-70s/early 80s-comeback Bugner; or Aussie Joe?

When I make these fantasy bouts you can assume these opponents are at their best unless I indicate otherwise.

Il Duce wrote:1980 Joe Bugner

Easily defeats Muhammad Ali in '1980 and 1981'.

Probably beats him in 1977, 1978 and 1979 as well.

Joe Bugner never beats anyone on the 'Fantasy List'

"There's no need to stoop down to the other guy's (Il Bugiardo) level..."

wouter
boxrec editor

wouter is correct. I'm not going to get in a pissing match with Il Bugiardo and start demeaning a man who had the stones to get in the ring with Joe Frazier and Muhammad Ali because a gentleman who never threw a punch in anger or for profit against anybody except a girl, a child, a physically challenged person, and a toy poodle is trying to provoke me.

I have turned over a new leaf thanks to one of the editors of this august site.


P.S. This thread isn't about the GOAT. Please don't hijack it. If you want to start a thread about the GOAT please start a new one. You have already started a "gazillion".

Thank you in advance.

Assuming Bugner is in his prime for each fight:

Bugner UD12 George Foreman 2.0 - close
Wlad Klitschko UD12 Joe Bugner - Bugner a very live underdog for a KO
Vitali Klitschko UD12 Joe Bugner - close but clear
Lennox Lewis TKO6 Bugner
Bugner UD12 Larry Holmes 2.0 - close
Bugner SD12 Gerry Cooney

Il Duce wrote:1980 Joe Bugner

Easily defeats Muhammad Ali in '1980 and 1981'.

Probably beats him in 1977, 1978 and 1979 as well.

Joe Bugner never beats anyone on the 'Fantasy List'

I missed what you were doing. He lost twenty four of twenty seven rounds to Muhammad Ali 2.0. He would have lost about the same to Muhammad Ali 3.0. I do admit he destroys Muhammad Ali 4.0. Not too many top ten fighters who can't beat a cat in the early stages of Parkinson's Disease.

He beats Foreman and Cooney. He loses to the rest.

Ezzard wrote:He beats Foreman and Cooney. He loses to the rest.

He was a safety first fighter. I think he goes the distance with all three of the versions I cited and decisions Cooney and Foreman in a boring fight. Him and Larry would be a pickem.

He wasn't a bad fighter, by any means, just not that exciting.

I agree. Just think Holmes paces himself and wins enough rounds...

Ezzard wrote:I agree. Just think Holmes paces himself and wins enough rounds...

I watched his fights with Ali. They are so boring because neither likes to lead. I do think a Holmes-Bugner fight is going to look more or less the same at any point in Holmes' first and second career, except at the very, very end. Then Bugner has the edge. I think up to that point Holmes wins clear cut decisions. He's not stopping Bugner.

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I agree. Just think Holmes paces himself and wins enough rounds...

I watched his fights with Ali. They are so boring because neither likes to lead. I do think a Holmes-Bugner fight is going to look more or less the same at any point in Holmes' first and second career, except at the very, very end. Then Bugner has the edge. I think up to that point Holmes wins clear cut decisions. He's not stopping Bugner.

Oh really...I though the first fight was really good. . . all have our own opinions I guess!

evrenb wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I agree. Just think Holmes paces himself and wins enough rounds...

I watched his fights with Ali. They are so boring because neither likes to lead. I do think a Holmes-Bugner fight is going to look more or less the same at any point in Holmes' first and second career, except at the very, very end. Then Bugner has the edge. I think up to that point Holmes wins clear cut decisions. He's not stopping Bugner.

Oh really...I though the first fight was really good. . . all have our own opinions I guess!

I have to watch it again.

mercman wrote:Bugner was much competitive in his first fight with Ali than in their second one. In fact, Bugner looked quite good - fast hands, very mobile etc. - and whilst, OK, Ali wasn't in his prime, the fight was pre-Manila, pre-Rumble. Ali wasn't washed up and Bugner gave him a pretty good fight.

I just rewatched the entire fight. It was if Ali was fighting a somewhat inferior version of himself and I don't say that to be pejorative. Ali was an ATG. It was odd seeing Ali have to lead...

I think Bugner loses to all of them except Cooney, and he could definitely give the 2nd coming of Foreman hell.

There were some alphabet champions in the 80s 90s, 00s, and 010s Bugner could have beat.

I have been watching a lot of his fights lately. He would have been favored or a live dog against everybody on the list I made up.

Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. That was the class of the 70s. Aussie Joe likely goes the distance with all of them and might even steal a decision or two

ThatOne wrote:There were some alphabet champions in the 80s 90s, 00s, and 010s Bugner could have beat.

I have been watching a lot of his fights lately. He would have been favored or a live dog against everybody on the list I made up.

Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. That was the class of the 70s. Aussie Joe likely goes the distance with all of them and might even steal a decision or two

I don't believe he could beat any of those last 5 names respectively at their best. I do agree he could've beaten his fair share of Alphabet Champions from the 80's, 90's and onward though.

I'd favor him over Hasim Rahman, Sergei Liakhovich, Lamon Brewster, Oleg Maskaev, and Samuel Peter to name a few.

gilgamesh wrote:

ThatOne wrote:There were some alphabet champions in the 80s 90s, 00s, and 010s Bugner could have beat.

I have been watching a lot of his fights lately. He would have been favored or a live dog against everybody on the list I made up.

Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. That was the class of the 70s. Aussie Joe likely goes the distance with all of them and might even steal a decision or two

I don't believe he could beat any of those last 5 names respectively at their best. I do agree he could've beaten his fair share of Alphabet Champions from the 80's, 90's and onward though.

I'd favor him over Hasim Rahman, Sergei Liakhovich, Lamon Brewster, Oleg Maskaev, and Samuel Peter to name a few.

I like him as a live dog against Norton. He did go the distance with Frazier and Ali and had the former in trouble.

ThatOne wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

ThatOne wrote:There were some alphabet champions in the 80s 90s, 00s, and 010s Bugner could have beat.

I have been watching a lot of his fights lately. He would have been favored or a live dog against everybody on the list I made up.

Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Norton, and Frazier. That was the class of the 70s. Aussie Joe likely goes the distance with all of them and might even steal a decision or two

I don't believe he could beat any of those last 5 names respectively at their best. I do agree he could've beaten his fair share of Alphabet Champions from the 80's, 90's and onward though.

I'd favor him over Hasim Rahman, Sergei Liakhovich, Lamon Brewster, Oleg Maskaev, and Samuel Peter to name a few.

I like him as a live dog against Norton. He did go the distance with Frazier and Ali and had the former in trouble.

I think Bugner is pretty overrated on this board and I don't seen him anywhere near Norton as a fighter. At the end of the day Bugner always lost whenever he stepped up and he would have lost against Norton too. I don't think he would beat many, if any of the 80's alphabet guys either. Bugner was safety first and rarely showed any real enthusiasm for the game of boxing.

hhaehre wrote: I think Bugner is pretty overrated on this board and I don't seen him anywhere near Norton as a fighter. At the end of the day Bugner always lost whenever he stepped up and he would have lost against Norton too. I don't think he would beat many, if any of the 80's alphabet guys either. Bugner was safety first and rarely showed any real enthusiasm for the game of boxing.

True.

Bugner was a good fighter... But I don't see him having any joy with Norton.

Aussie Joe is being shortchanged in this thread. The kid was for real. He fought thirty nine competitive rounds with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and had the latter shook.

ThatOne wrote:Aussie Joe is being shortchanged in this thread. The kid was for real. He fought thirty nine competitive rounds with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and had the latter shook.

He wasn't all that competitive with Ali, especially not in the second fight and he certainly never beat a fighter as good as Norton. Maybe he could have beaten v2.0 of Holmes and Foreman but I doubt it and Cooney would have been a toss up. The rest beats him but he'd probably go the distance in all the fights.

hhaehre wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Aussie Joe is being shortchanged in this thread. The kid was for real. He fought thirty nine competitive rounds with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and had the latter shook.

He wasn't all that competitive with Ali, especially not in the second fight and he certainly never beat a fighter as good as Norton. Maybe he could have beaten v2.0 of Holmes and Foreman but I doubt it and Cooney would have been a toss up. The rest beats him but he'd probably go the distance in all the fights.

I agree with your observation about the two Ali fights. What's odd is that when you factor in age and wear and tear Bugner should have been better in the second Ali fight and Ali worse.

ThatOne wrote:

hhaehre wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Aussie Joe is being shortchanged in this thread. The kid was for real. He fought thirty nine competitive rounds with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier and had the latter shook.

He wasn't all that competitive with Ali, especially not in the second fight and he certainly never beat a fighter as good as Norton. Maybe he could have beaten v2.0 of Holmes and Foreman but I doubt it and Cooney would have been a toss up. The rest beats him but he'd probably go the distance in all the fights.

I agree with your observation about the two Ali fights. What's odd is that when you factor in age and wear and tear Bugner should have been better in the second Ali fight and Ali worse.

Bugner blamed it on the heat in Malaysia

Unrelated, but does anyone have access to a picture of Bugner when he fought Bob Mirovic in the Australian Heavyweight title match?