BoxRec

Every thread on the front page directly or indirectly degrades him. Not only was he one of the most celebrated boxers of the twentieth century but he was one of the most celebrated Americans of the twentieth century.

He defeated four Olympic Gold Medalists, seven IBHOf inductees, and three other top ten all time great heavyweights. He compiled a 29-0 record in his prime, a 19-2 record in his post prime, and a 7-3 record as a done fighter.

All I see on the front page are thinly veiled accusations that he was a coward and write ups of his filler fights with Rudi Lubbers, Jean Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn...

I think I speak for a large portion of the boxing public when I say it's a travesty.

ThatOne wrote:Every thread on the front page directly or indirectly degrades him. Not only was he one of the most celebrated boxers of the twentieth century but he was one of the most celebrated Americans of the twentieth century.

He defeated four Olympic Gold Medalists, seven IBHOf inductees, and three other top ten all time great heavyweights. He compiled a 29-0 record in his prime, a 19-2 record in his post prime, and a 7-3 record as a done fighter.

All I see on the front page are thinly veiled accusations that he was a coward and write ups of his filler fights with Rudi Lubbers, Jean Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn...

I think I speak for a large portion of the boxing public when I say it's a travesty.

I wrote a nice one on the day i met muhammad ali...threads that are deliberately inciteful and controversial are more popular and give the attention that Duce craves for as he is invisible in real life.
Thats why buzz allows his behaviour as it attracts lots of posts and that is what is apparently important...

evrenb wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Every thread on the front page directly or indirectly degrades him. Not only was he one of the most celebrated boxers of the twentieth century but he was one of the most celebrated Americans of the twentieth century.

He defeated four Olympic Gold Medalists, seven IBHOf inductees, and three other top ten all time great heavyweights. He compiled a 29-0 record in his prime, a 19-2 record in his post prime, and a 7-3 record as a done fighter.

All I see on the front page are thinly veiled accusations that he was a coward and write ups of his filler fights with Rudi Lubbers, Jean Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn...

I think I speak for a large portion of the boxing public when I say it's a travesty.

I wrote a nice one on the day i met muhammad ali...threads that are deliberately inciteful and controversial are more popular and give the attention that Duce craves for as he is invisible in real life.
Thats why buzz allows his behaviour as it attracts lots of posts and that is what is apparently important...

You wouldn't go to a "basketball players of the past board" and see one hundred negative threads on Bill russell and Michael Jordan to every positive one, you just wouldn't...

Don't respond. You give the whole exercise some credibility.

Unfortunately this forum isn't moderated well enough, I'm sure the mods here are well intentioned but for me certain posters are just trolls, wheeling out anti Ali stuff all the time. The joke of it is that if you talk out about it here you end up getting more grief than the actual troll/trolls!. I ve just about given up on this forum due to this and that's sad really.

I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

Controversial wrote:I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

"Elvis Presley has been described variously as a baritone and a tenor. An extraordinary compass- the so-called register-, and a very wide range of vocal color have something to do with this divergence of opinion. The voice covers two octaves and a third, from the baritone low-G to the tenor high B, with an upward extension in falsetto to at least a D flat. Presley's best octave is in the middle, D-flat to D-flat, granting an extra full step up or down. Call him a high baritone. In "It's'now or never", (1960), he ends it in a full voice cadence (A, G, F), that has nothing to do with the vocal devices of Rhythm and Blues and Country. That A-note is hit right on the nose, and it is rendered less astonishing only by the number of tracks where he lands easy and accurate B-flats. Moreover, he has not been confined to one type of vocal production. In ballads and country songs he belts out full-voiced high G's and A's that an opera baritone might envy. He is a naturally assimilative stylist with a multiplicity of voices - in fact, Elvis' is an extraordinary voice, or many voices"
- Henry Pleasants, in his book "The Great American Popular Singers" (1974)


As far as Muhammad Ali his body of work speaks for itself. He was probably one of the most naturally gifted athletes the world of boxing has ever seen. The hand speed, the foot speed, the rapier like reflexes...And that marvelous heart that never abandoned him as his God given skills did.

ThatOne wrote:

Controversial wrote:I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

"Elvis Presley has been described variously as a baritone and a tenor. An extraordinary compass- the so-called register-, and a very wide range of vocal color have something to do with this divergence of opinion. The voice covers two octaves and a third, from the baritone low-G to the tenor high B, with an upward extension in falsetto to at least a D flat. Presley's best octave is in the middle, D-flat to D-flat, granting an extra full step up or down. Call him a high baritone. In "It's'now or never", (1960), he ends it in a full voice cadence (A, G, F), that has nothing to do with the vocal devices of Rhythm and Blues and Country. That A-note is hit right on the nose, and it is rendered less astonishing only by the number of tracks where he lands easy and accurate B-flats. Moreover, he has not been confined to one type of vocal production. In ballads and country songs he belts out full-voiced high G's and A's that an opera baritone might envy. He is a naturally assimilative stylist with a multiplicity of voices - in fact, Elvis' is an extraordinary voice, or many voices"
- Henry Pleasants, in his book "The Great American Popular Singers" (1974)


As far as Muhammad Ali his body of work speaks for itself. He was probably one of the most naturally gifted athletes the world of boxing has ever seen. The hand speed, the foot speed, the rapier like reflexes...And that marvelous heart that never abandoned him as his God given skills did.

Amen to that. I.agree 100%..TCB

ThatOne wrote:

Controversial wrote:I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

"Elvis Presley has been described variously as a baritone and a tenor. An extraordinary compass- the so-called register-, and a very wide range of vocal color have something to do with this divergence of opinion. The voice covers two octaves and a third, from the baritone low-G to the tenor high B, with an upward extension in falsetto to at least a D flat. Presley's best octave is in the middle, D-flat to D-flat, granting an extra full step up or down. Call him a high baritone. In "It's'now or never", (1960), he ends it in a full voice cadence (A, G, F), that has nothing to do with the vocal devices of Rhythm and Blues and Country. That A-note is hit right on the nose, and it is rendered less astonishing only by the number of tracks where he lands easy and accurate B-flats. Moreover, he has not been confined to one type of vocal production. In ballads and country songs he belts out full-voiced high G's and A's that an opera baritone might envy. He is a naturally assimilative stylist with a multiplicity of voices - in fact, Elvis' is an extraordinary voice, or many voices"
- Henry Pleasants, in his book "The Great American Popular Singers" (1974)

I'm not saying he couldn't sing, what I meant his continued admiration so many years after his death is unusual. For the record I'm a big Elvis fan. Presley went very weird in his final years, the whole karate exhibitions on stage etc..., cringey to say the least. Maybe a bad analogy, just showing that someone doesn't necessarily need to be the "greatest" to be thought of as the "greatest". Madonna can't sing for toffee but is still classed by many as some sort of musical legend.

Ali wasn't the greatest "fighter" its the whole package surrounding him and public admiration from non-boxing fans that has built his legend.

Controversial wrote:As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

I beg to differ on that one - Elvis was (is) the tops :-)

Controversial wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Controversial wrote:I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

"Elvis Presley has been described variously as a baritone and a tenor. An extraordinary compass- the so-called register-, and a very wide range of vocal color have something to do with this divergence of opinion. The voice covers two octaves and a third, from the baritone low-G to the tenor high B, with an upward extension in falsetto to at least a D flat. Presley's best octave is in the middle, D-flat to D-flat, granting an extra full step up or down. Call him a high baritone. In "It's'now or never", (1960), he ends it in a full voice cadence (A, G, F), that has nothing to do with the vocal devices of Rhythm and Blues and Country. That A-note is hit right on the nose, and it is rendered less astonishing only by the number of tracks where he lands easy and accurate B-flats. Moreover, he has not been confined to one type of vocal production. In ballads and country songs he belts out full-voiced high G's and A's that an opera baritone might envy. He is a naturally assimilative stylist with a multiplicity of voices - in fact, Elvis' is an extraordinary voice, or many voices"
- Henry Pleasants, in his book "The Great American Popular Singers" (1974)

I'm not saying he couldn't sing, what I meant his continued admiration so many years after his death is unusual. For the record I'm a big Elvis fan. Presley went very weird in his final years, the whole karate exhibitions on stage etc..., cringey to say the least. Maybe a bad analogy, just showing that someone doesn't necessarily need to be the "greatest" to be thought of as the "greatest". Madonna can't sing for toffee but is still classed by many as some sort of musical legend.

Ali wasn't the greatest "fighter" its the whole package surrounding him and public admiration from non-boxing fans that has built his legend.

I agree... Elvis was a generation before me but he was an icon...I think you are shortchanging Ali a bit...Yeah, he wasn't the most fundamentally sound fighter but as Jose Torres wrote he showed you his mistakes and then caught you when you tried to take advantage of them. He could also skate, fight in the center of the ring, and off the ropes...

He did write the song...."One Night" with you......... about his dear departed mother.

Not a bad tune...

ThatOne wrote:As far as Muhammad Ali his body of work speaks for itself. He was probably one of the most naturally gifted athletes the world of boxing has ever seen. The hand speed, the foot speed, the rapier like reflexes...And that marvelous heart that never abandoned him as his God given skills did.

Sums it all up nicely - Ali was the greatest heavyweight ever.
As for Il Duce's insane threads, it was actually quite funny at first but enough is enough.

SteveO wrote:

Controversial wrote:As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

I beg to differ on that one - Elvis was (is) the tops :-)

I read a great story about how Elvis wanted to get away and just have some peace and quiet so he spent two weeks at Deer lake. Elvis and Muhammad Ali's entourage must have been a riot.

If you ever go to Vegas, go the LVH hotel, there's a plaque there celebrating his thousand ? sold out performances.

"I think you are shortchanging Ali a bit...Yeah, he wasn't the most fundamentally sound fighter but as Jose Torres wrote he showed you his mistakes and then caught you when you tried to take advantage of them. He could also skate, fight in the center of the ring, and off the ropes." That One


Plus he could fight dirty.

Damn near the complete package.

ThatOne wrote:
I agree... Elvis was a generation before me but he was an icon...I think you are shortchanging Ali a bit...Yeah, he wasn't the most fundamentally sound fighter but as Jose Torres wrote he showed you his mistakes and then caught you when you tried to take advantage of them. He could also skate, fight in the center of the ring, and off the ropes...

Of course he could fight, you don't beat people like Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, Lyle etc... without being able to fight but he wasn't my personal cup of tea to watch. He had his flaws but he normally found a way of stopping fighters taking advantage of them. The whole "greatest" tag suggests he thought he was the greatest fighter who has ever lived, certainly not in my book.

Another example is David Beckham. He has huge worldwide fame, adored by millions and treated like some sort of god yet there are plenty of better footballers than he ever was.

BoxBuzz wrote:He did write the song...."One Night" with you......... about his dear departed mother.
Not a bad tune...

Elvis had a hand in writing a few songs but 'One Night' wasn't one of them - that was written by Dave Bartholomew, Pearl King and Anita Steiman.

yancey wrote:"I think you are shortchanging Ali a bit...Yeah, he wasn't the most fundamentally sound fighter but as Jose Torres wrote he showed you his mistakes and then caught you when you tried to take advantage of them. He could also skate, fight in the center of the ring, and off the ropes." That One


Plus he could fight dirty.

Damn near the complete package.

Interestingly out of his sixty one bouts only one of his opponents accused him of fighting dirty. As an editorial note I don't blame him for coming up with an excuse after taking a one sided beating...

Oh, this thread would be incomplete without representation from Il Duce or one of his internet counsel.

ThatOne wrote:

yancey wrote:"I think you are shortchanging Ali a bit...Yeah, he wasn't the most fundamentally sound fighter but as Jose Torres wrote he showed you his mistakes and then caught you when you tried to take advantage of them. He could also skate, fight in the center of the ring, and off the ropes." That One


Plus he could fight dirty.

Damn near the complete package.

Interestingly out of his sixty one bouts only one of his opponents accused him of fighting dirty. As an editorial note I don't blame him for coming up with an excuse after taking a one sided beating...

Oh, this thread would be incomplete without representation from Il Duce or one of his internet consiglieres.

Sorry, I just can't resist.

You know, the little boy/Emperor isn't wearing clothes thing.

ThatOne wrote:I read a great story about how Elvis wanted to get away and just have some peace and quiet so he spent two weeks at Deer lake. Elvis and Muhammad Ali's entourage must have been a riot.

Yes, I know about the Deer Lake visit - shame no known photographs exist.
There are however photos of Elvis presenting Ali with the 'People's Champion' robe and 'sparring' with him.

SteveO wrote:

ThatOne wrote:I read a great story about how Elvis wanted to get away and just have some peace and quiet so he spent two weeks at Deer lake. Elvis and Muhammad Ali's entourage must have been a riot.

Yes, I know about the Deer Lake visit - shame no known photographs exist.
There are however photos of Elvis presenting Ali with the 'People's Champion' robe and 'sparring' with him.

He wore that robe in his first fight with Norton. He never wore it again because he felt it brought bad luck.

ThatOne wrote:Every thread on the front page directly or indirectly degrades him. Not only was he one of the most celebrated boxers of the twentieth century but he was one of the most celebrated Americans of the twentieth century.

He defeated four Olympic Gold Medalists, seven IBHOf inductees, and three other top ten all time great heavyweights. He compiled a 29-0 record in his prime, a 19-2 record in his post prime, and a 7-3 record as a done fighter.

All I see on the front page are thinly veiled accusations that he was a coward and write ups of his filler fights with Rudi Lubbers, Jean Pierre Coopman and Richard Dunn...

I think I speak for a large portion of the boxing public when I say it's a travesty.

He was in his prime and was probably unbeatable when stripped of the title if not for that its conceivable he could have retired undefeated by 1973

Controversial wrote:I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

Elvis was the right shade, and stole a lot of good soul music, and yet, people still see him as the greatest.That says a lot.Unfreakingbelievable!

ThatOne wrote:

Controversial wrote:I guess Ali is an easy target, he started the "I am the greatest" line so thats bound to attract negativity. To be fair as an actual fighter his abilities are often overrated, he didn't throw any body punches as an example. His success was on speed, great punch resistance. I wouldn't say I was a huge fan. His general fame is more because of the controversy over his life, his personality and showmanship. Boxing hadn't seen anything like him before. Personally many of his fights were boring but his overall achievements cannot be ignored.

As an example Elvis Presley is still given worldwide admiration yet he didn't write any of his songs and was mainly popular because again the world hadn't seen someone like him before and he was a good looking fella. That doesn't make him a best singer in the world.

"Elvis Presley has been described variously as a baritone and a tenor. An extraordinary compass- the so-called register-, and a very wide range of vocal color have something to do with this divergence of opinion. The voice covers two octaves and a third, from the baritone low-G to the tenor high B, with an upward extension in falsetto to at least a D flat. Presley's best octave is in the middle, D-flat to D-flat, granting an extra full step up or down. Call him a high baritone. In "It's'now or never", (1960), he ends it in a full voice cadence (A, G, F), that has nothing to do with the vocal devices of Rhythm and Blues and Country. That A-note is hit right on the nose, and it is rendered less astonishing only by the number of tracks where he lands easy and accurate B-flats. Moreover, he has not been confined to one type of vocal production. In ballads and country songs he belts out full-voiced high G's and A's that an opera baritone might envy. He is a naturally assimilative stylist with a multiplicity of voices - in fact, Elvis' is an extraordinary voice, or many voices"
- Henry Pleasants, in his book "The Great American Popular Singers" (1974)


As far as Muhammad Ali his body of work speaks for itself. He was probably one of the most naturally gifted athletes the world of boxing has ever seen. The hand speed, the foot speed, the rapier like reflexes...And that marvelous heart that never abandoned him as his God given skills did.

I have sometimes said, 'Good post' but I have never (until now) said, 'That is a lovely post' - very touching

Controversial wrote:The whole "greatest" tag suggests he thought he was the greatest fighter who has ever lived.

There is a documentary on Sugar Ray Robinson. I forget what it is called now but I'll dig the name up as I have it on disk.

In it, they interview Ali who says "I always said I was the greatest heavyweight, but Ray Robinson was the greatest ever pound for pound."

Hey, serendipity strikes, that was the name of the documentary - "Pound for Pound"!