BoxRec

Prime for prime.

There are a few guys that I'd like the chances of against Ali, but I can honestly say, that I wouldn't bet on anyone to beat him.

Is there anyone who you are convinced would beat Ali?

Absolutely no one. Closest tyson and frazier based on joe's performance against a rusty, past his prime Ali in '71. Maybe jack johnson..1965-1967 Ali is the greatest heavyweight that ever lived...1968, 1969 would have been even greater....shame.

No one...

But there are a few fighters I wouldn't bet a month's wages a presumably prime Ali would beat.

ThatOne wrote:No one...

But there are a few fighters I wouldn't bet a month's wages a presumably prime Ali would beat.

I'm interested, who?

I think he could have trouble against Jack Johnson, Holmes and Lennox on his best night. I'll probably get shot for saying this, but I think Louis is an easy night for Ali.

Il Duce wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:Prime for prime.

There are a few guys that I'd like the chances of against Ali, but I can honestly say, that I wouldn't bet on anyone to beat him.

Is there anyone who you are convinced would beat Ali?

Do you mean with 'fair judges' and a proper Referee.

No point in you commenting, you're list will be so long, it'll crash the bleedin' server.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

ThatOne wrote:No one...

But there are a few fighters I wouldn't bet a month's wages a presumably prime Ali would beat.

I'm interested, who?

I think he could have trouble against Jack Johnson, Holmes and Lennox on his best night. I'll probably get shot for saying this, but I think Louis is an easy night for Ali.

A prime Ali would be favored to beat any hw in history with the possible exception of Joe Louis. However I do think he would be favored.

But the question is what fighters I wouldn't bet a month's salary on that Ali would definitely beat.

Frazier, Lewis, Holmes, Tyson... But i would definitely bet a week's salary on him to beat them.

Il Duce wrote:Prime vs. Prime

* Joe Frazier
* Larry Holmes
* Lennox Lewis
* Jack Dempsey
* Joe Louis
* Mike Tyson
* Sonny Liston
* Evander Holyfield
* Riddick Bowe
* The Klitschko Family
* Corrie Sanders

Too Close To Call
* Jack Johnson
* James J. Jeffries
* Gene Tunney

You have a career in comedy just waiting for you.

Guys like Holmes, Johnson, Witherspoon, Norton, Young would make it close every time. But I think Ali would win 3 out of 5.

Frazier I would bet on, if I were a betting man.

evrenb wrote:Absolutely no one. Closest tyson and frazier based on joe's performance against a rusty, past his prime Ali in '71. Maybe jack johnson..1965-1967 Ali is the greatest heavyweight that ever lived...1968, 1969 would have been even greater....shame.

"rusty, past his prime Ali in '71." evrenb

LOL, 3/8/71 Ali fought one of his greatest fights. He was ready. I commend Ali, I did not expect him to make the final bell that night in '71.

Are you one of those ones who think that '66 Ali is able to dance for 15 rounds against Frazier?

Ali never faced anyone as relentless as Frazier and adept at cutting the ring off and forcing the mover to make a stand and fight.

That is why he did not look as good against Frazier as he did against those '66 stiffs who were way down in class from Joe.

Ezzard wrote:Guys like Holmes, Johnson, Witherspoon, Norton, Young would make it close every time. But I think Ali would win 3 out of 5.

Frazier I would bet on, if I were a betting man.

Frazier with his pressing style will always be difficult. If you watch the second norton fight Ali pretty much swept the first six rounds by fighting on his toes. It was only when he tired that Norton became competitive. The pre-exile Ali presumably wouldn't have tired as quickly.

I know slick boxers like Doug Jones gave Clay/Ali a bit of trouble but it would be the great pressure fighters who would scare me the most.

Il Duce wrote:Keith Moon

Muhammad Ali on beating Joe Louis.

Muhammad would have a better chance of playing drums for 'The Beatles'.

Who did Joe Louis beat Muhammad Ali couldn't beat?

Ezzard wrote:Guys like Holmes, Johnson, Witherspoon, Norton, Young would make it close every time. But I think Ali would win 3 out of 5.

Frazier I would bet on, if I were a betting man.

I would bet on '69 Frazier to bag Ali, either by late TKO or UD.

yancey wrote:Ali never faced anyone as relentless as Frazier and adept at cutting the ring off and forcing the mover to make a stand and fight.

And Frazier never fought anyone as fast and skilled as prime Ali.

I agree Frazier was more relentless than any other fighter Ali faced. I feel Liston was better than Frazier..how can you honestly say Ali was better after a three and a half year lay off. What rubbish. Frazier fought a brilliant fight, Ali did too....but the 60's Ali was a much better fighter...in my opinion Ali would have beaten Joe had Ali been in his prime. .was Frazier as good when he came back and fought Jumbo Cummings after more than three years off? Im not getting into putting Joe down as he is one of my heroes. Ali was simply better as he proved in the 2nd and 3rd fights...

All we know is that Muhammad Ali was filling out and improving with every fight, that's what boxers do...that's what all athletes do....before he was unjustly stripped of his title and not allowed to box for three and one half years.

What he would have or would not have accomplished is supposition and conjecture.

Joe would have always been tough but to say a three and one half layoff in a athlete's prime is of no consequence doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Guys like Holmes, Johnson, Witherspoon, Norton, Young would make it close every time. But I think Ali would win 3 out of 5.

Frazier I would bet on, if I were a betting man.

Frazier with his pressing style will always be difficult. If you watch the second norton fight Ali pretty much swept the first six rounds by fighting on his toes. It was only when he tired that Norton became competitive. The pre-exile Ali presumably wouldn't have tired as quickly.

I know slick boxers like Doug Jones gave Clay/Ali a bit of trouble but it would be the great pressure fighters who would scare me the most.

Pressure fighters and slick boxers (but who does like fighting them...other than Frazier...)

But punchers? Ali feasted on punchers...

I think a prime Larry Holmes would have given the great Muhammad Ali fits.

If we talk about styles and ring generalship, the great Ezzard Charles would have beaten him, that IF, a big IF, Charles would have been at least 25 pounds heavier and fast as he was.

I do not think Lennox Lewis would have been a problem for Ali.

Definitely the great Smokin Joe would have been a NIGHTMARE for him. Especially, the late 60s and early 70s version of the FOTC. After the FOTC, Joe was never the same guy.

Il Duce wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

yancey wrote:Ali never faced anyone as relentless as Frazier and adept at cutting the ring off and forcing the mover to make a stand and fight.

And Frazier never fought anyone as fast and skilled as prime Ali.

Yea, 'medicocre' Karl Mildenberger had lots of trouble with "prime" Muhammad Ali.



Yea, 'cement shoes' and 'old man' Zora Folley had lots of trouble with Muhammad Ali early in their fight.



Yea, 'gangling' Ernie Terrell found himself on the canvas several times against Muhammad Ali.

SMH

You can pick apart any fighter's resume and find desultory results. A fighter with a record of 22-27 took Frazier the distance.

Prime Frazier is the only one I'd wager that much on. That night in MSG he beats any Ali you want to throw at him. Though Joe was even better in 69.

I wouldn't bet a month's wages on any fighter in history beating Ali; I don't earn enough to take such a gamble!

Taking money out of the equation, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson, Evander Holyfield & of course, Joe Frazier had the styles to trouble him the most, but whether they would have beaten him, it's hard to say.

Joe Frazier
Lennox Lewis
Jack Johnson
Larry Holmes

These are the guys with the best chance. I wouldn't bet a month's wages on anyone to beat a prime Ali.

Il Duce wrote:Prime vs. Prime

* Joe Frazier
* Larry Holmes
* Lennox Lewis
* Jack Dempsey
* Joe Louis
* Mike Tyson
* Sonny Liston
* Evander Holyfield
* Riddick Bowe
* The Klitschko Family
* Ken Norton
* Corrie Sanders

Too Close To Call
* Jack Johnson
* James J. Jeffries
* Gene Tunney

Hilarious, it's a pity we can't all line up to take your money.

Another high point was attributing a quote to Keith Moon. You just don't see enough comments from drummers on boxing.

the great brown bomber joe louis sonny liston if he wasnt wearing handcuffs maybe cleveland williams in his prime without two bullets in his body

Frazier and Holmes are the best bet.
I think Lewis, Louis, Holyfield, Tyson and Marciano all make it close

Il Duce wrote:

grevan wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Prime vs. Prime

* Joe Frazier
* Larry Holmes
* Lennox Lewis
* Jack Dempsey
* Joe Louis
* Mike Tyson
* Sonny Liston
* Evander Holyfield
* Riddick Bowe
* The Klitschko Family
* Ken Norton
* Corrie Sanders

Too Close To Call
* Jack Johnson
* James J. Jeffries
* Gene Tunney

Hilarious, it's a pity we can't all line up to take your money.

Another high point was attributing a quote to Keith Moon. You just don't see enough comments from drummers on boxing.

It was a Joke, you Dingo Warrior.

In response to member 'KeithMoonHangover'

I've looked deep into your psyche Il Duce....and I have seen things.
And here is what I have to share. Because it is the truth.

When you first arrived....this list is precisely what you believed, and you would have wagered thusly. A part of you still believes it and could (on a bad day) be drawn into poor financial decisions.

However....the seed of wisdom brought about by the throngs of responses to your under researched assumptions regarding Ali, and your ill informed deficit based advertising campaign has left it's indelible mark on your assessment. And you have come to doubt yourself.

Fear not...for this doubt is the mark of a man with an opening mind. One that can be rehabilitated toward logical linear thinking.

You sir...are on the road to recovery, by openly intimating the following within this statement:

1. That you have a sense of humor. Which I believe you do. You certainly have helped others here laugh.
2. That you can be moved, by the power of facts, truth, wisdom and compelling forensic evidence.
3. That you once believed that list, and you now recognize that this.... your own former static imagined creation is now dimly recognizable by you to be but a single bus stop, upon the long and tedious journey toward greater pugilistic awareness.

Now breathe in......hold it for 10 seconds........now slowly exhale, and feel that list ever so slowly de-populating itself. First the silly names begin to disappear ...Corrie Sanders and Klitco inc slowly fade...until.... ....gone....in your minds eye they no longer exist on the list.

another deep breath....count to 10.....let it out...slowly

now the names of those he had defeated in real time begin to fade....

Liston, Norton and yes eventually even Frazier's name are.....fading fading...gone!

another breath....Some early and later generation big mooks....names begin to fade..... Jeffries, Lewis, Bowe......fading from the list...


Let it out....take another deep breath

see the rest of the list fade...away....now down to just Joe Louis.

See even the brown bombers name becoming indistinguishable and beginning to blend into the background.......as you gain self awareness and a deep internal knowing that yes... perhaps even Joe Louis is someone you would not place an entire months pay at risk in order to support your former wild imaginings.

Now as I count slowly from 1 to 10 you are returning...refreshed, relaxed and clearly more knowledgeable than in the past.