Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 26 Nov 2013, 11:34
According to U.S. Census Records, Sonny was 32 or 33 in 1963, not 36.
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Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
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Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 26 Nov 2013, 15:20
Not sure when exactly Sonny Liston was 36 years of age, given that his true birth records were never recovered. But if this were when he was REPORTED as being around 36, which was in 1969, then I'd still go with the ill-faded Muhammad Ali of 1978. Liston was slower than molasses at this stage and Ko'd by leotis Martin. I'd pick Muhammad who was at least still capable of going 15 rounds to pull it off.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 26 Nov 2013, 17:56
Sonny was not 36 in 1963. The only available records are the US Census. According to the census he was 32 or 33 in 1963.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 26 Nov 2013, 18:07
He was reported as being 32 for the first Clay fight of 1964, but most people feel he was older. No one really knows for sure.. He was born in arkansas to a family of some 13 siblings. in all likelihood ( though I am being presumptuous) he probably wasn't even born in a hospital. He could have been as old as 40 when he fought Clay, but I am guessing 35 is a reasonable guess.raylawpc wrote:Sonny was not 36 in 1963. The only available records are the US Census. According to the census he was 32 or 33 in 1963.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 26 Nov 2013, 21:01
so..... did the cows ever come home?
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 26 Nov 2013, 22:28
Il Duce wrote:BoxBuzz wrote:so..... did the cows ever come home?
Yes they did,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and they were very old.
Friesian or Guernsey?
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 07:33
As Raylawpc says, there's no longer any mystery about Liston's age, the documentary evidence is pretty straightforward:
http://img6. .us/img6/1402/liston3.jpg
April 1930, there's Tobin and Helen Liston living in Arkansas, with all their kids down to little 6-month old Curtis but, of course, no Charles.
http://img96. .us/img96/2692/liston1.jpg
http://img692. .us/img692/8007/liston2z.jpg
Spin forward 10 years, there they are again. Curtis' age is given as 11 when, obviously, he must actually have been 10 and a half. After him comes Charles. His age is given as 10 but given his brother's age he can't actually have been more than 9 and a half.
So Charles Liston was born in late 1930 and was 32 years old when he won his rematch with Floyd Patterson. It will take more than making up quotes by Bill Faversham to alter that fact.
http://img6. .us/img6/1402/liston3.jpg
April 1930, there's Tobin and Helen Liston living in Arkansas, with all their kids down to little 6-month old Curtis but, of course, no Charles.
http://img96. .us/img96/2692/liston1.jpg
http://img692. .us/img692/8007/liston2z.jpg
Spin forward 10 years, there they are again. Curtis' age is given as 11 when, obviously, he must actually have been 10 and a half. After him comes Charles. His age is given as 10 but given his brother's age he can't actually have been more than 9 and a half.
So Charles Liston was born in late 1930 and was 32 years old when he won his rematch with Floyd Patterson. It will take more than making up quotes by Bill Faversham to alter that fact.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 11:44
About 20 or 21. You are about 13 years too early in your dating of the lower photo. When he was champion, Sonny came back to the Walls and did an exhibition. A client of mine, a son of a guard at the institution who knew Liston, showed me a whole stack of photos, and this was one of them.Il Duce wrote:How Old ?
Any idea of how old this handsome young gentleman is.
Sonny Boy @ the Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City {1952}
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 12:11
Looks a bit like Wepner from a distance standing with Sonny. Thanks for this information...I though Sonny would want to steer well clear of prisons lolraylawpc wrote:About 20 or 21. You are about 13 years too early in your dating of the lower photo. When he was champion, Sonny came back to the Walls and did an exhibition. A client of mine, a son of a guard at the institution who knew Liston, showed me a whole stack of photos, and this was one of them.Il Duce wrote:How Old ?
Any idea of how old this handsome young gentleman is.
Sonny Boy @ the Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City {1952}
Good Work.
Evren
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 15:05
You're suggestion is totally speculative. Yes, if the mugshot was taken in 1950 (prove it), then he would be 19 or 20.Il Duce wrote:This should be the January 1950 'Mug Shot'
If Charles Liston was born in mid-1930 - this would make 'Sonny Boy' Age; 19 1/2.
I'd suggest he was born in May 1927 - making him Age; 22 1/2
Charles Liston already had an arrest sheet of '20' charges by January 1950.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 19:22
That does make more sense. I can't imagine a crowd that size or a photo of Liston being taken if he wasn't famous.raylawpc wrote:About 20 or 21. You are about 13 years too early in your dating of the lower photo. When he was champion, Sonny came back to the Walls and did an exhibition. A client of mine, a son of a guard at the institution who knew Liston, showed me a whole stack of photos, and this was one of them.Il Duce wrote:How Old ?
Any idea of how old this handsome young gentleman is.
Sonny Boy @ the Missouri State Penitentiary in Jefferson City {1952}
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 19:24
Is it just me but nothing happens when I click on your links?SolomonDeedes wrote:As Raylawpc says, there's no longer any mystery about Liston's age, the documentary evidence is pretty straightforward:
http://img6. .us/img6/1402/liston3.jpg
April 1930, there's Tobin and Helen Liston living in Arkansas, with all their kids down to little 6-month old Curtis but, of course, no Charles.
http://img96. .us/img96/2692/liston1.jpg
http://img692. .us/img692/8007/liston2z.jpg
Spin forward 10 years, there they are again. Curtis' age is given as 11 when, obviously, he must actually have been 10 and a half. After him comes Charles. His age is given as 10 but given his brother's age he can't actually have been more than 9 and a half.
So Charles Liston was born in late 1930 and was 32 years old when he won his rematch with Floyd Patterson. It will take more than making up quotes by Bill Faversham to alter that fact.
Listons mother claimed he was born in 1928 making him 36 when he fought Ali. There was also a marriage certificate doing the rounds which had him born in 1928.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 19:57
You said 1952 in your first post?Il Duce wrote:
The photo could be as early as 1962, and as late as 1968, when Sonny went back to
Missouri to fight Billy Joiner.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 23:14
The US Census Records do not show Liston in 1930. He shows up for the first time in the 1940 US Census, and is listed at ten-years-old.Controversial wrote:Is it just me but nothing happens when I click on your links?SolomonDeedes wrote:As Raylawpc says, there's no longer any mystery about Liston's age, the documentary evidence is pretty straightforward:
http://img6. .us/img6/1402/liston3.jpg
April 1930, there's Tobin and Helen Liston living in Arkansas, with all their kids down to little 6-month old Curtis but, of course, no Charles.
http://img96. .us/img96/2692/liston1.jpg
http://img692. .us/img692/8007/liston2z.jpg
Spin forward 10 years, there they are again. Curtis' age is given as 11 when, obviously, he must actually have been 10 and a half. After him comes Charles. His age is given as 10 but given his brother's age he can't actually have been more than 9 and a half.
So Charles Liston was born in late 1930 and was 32 years old when he won his rematch with Floyd Patterson. It will take more than making up quotes by Bill Faversham to alter that fact.
Listons mother claimed he was born in 1928 making him 36 when he fought Ali. There was also a marriage certificate doing the rounds which had him born in 1928.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 27 Nov 2013, 23:20
The caption says nothing of the sort. The photo comes from the Missouri State Penitentiary's website list of infamous inmates. The words "{circa; 1952}" do not appear. (Indeed, the photo itself has no caption.) You would still be claiming this was a 1952 photo if I had not called you on it. Here is the link to the website with the picture so people can see for themselves:Il Duce wrote:I made an 'error' based upon what the caption stated {circa; 1952}.
Sonny Liston won the Heavyweight Championship in September 1962 in Chicago,
and was living in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania at the time.
The photo should be between circa 1962/1963.
http://www.missouripentours.com/infamous-inmates.php
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 28 Nov 2013, 05:54
That's embarassing - apparently boxrec doesn't like the image service where I have the full page documents stashed. Could have sworn I checked they were working but I guess not.Controversial wrote:Is it just me but nothing happens when I click on your links?SolomonDeedes wrote:As Raylawpc says, there's no longer any mystery about Liston's age, the documentary evidence is pretty straightforward:
http://img6. .us/img6/1402/liston3.jpg
April 1930, there's Tobin and Helen Liston living in Arkansas, with all their kids down to little 6-month old Curtis but, of course, no Charles.
http://img96. .us/img96/2692/liston1.jpg
http://img692. .us/img692/8007/liston2z.jpg
Spin forward 10 years, there they are again. Curtis' age is given as 11 when, obviously, he must actually have been 10 and a half. After him comes Charles. His age is given as 10 but given his brother's age he can't actually have been more than 9 and a half.
So Charles Liston was born in late 1930 and was 32 years old when he won his rematch with Floyd Patterson. It will take more than making up quotes by Bill Faversham to alter that fact.
Listons mother claimed he was born in 1928 making him 36 when he fought Ali. There was also a marriage certificate doing the rounds which had him born in 1928.
Here are the relevant snippets, then. The Liston family in April 1930, with Curtis' age given as 6 months:
The Liston family in April 1940, with Curtis and Charles listed as being 11 and 10. Assuming it's unlikely that Tobin Liston in 1930 would have given his new baby's age as 6 months when he was actually over a year old, they must actually have been more like 10 and a half and 9 and a half.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 28 Nov 2013, 06:09
Yes I've seen the census before however they are notoriously inaccurate and self reported so people could say anything they wanted to. There's travellers born in the UK in very recent years that don't know their real age. In that era, and from the family he came from, records just weren't kept. There have always been questions asked about his age, as mentioned before his mother said it was 1928. For years Liston said he was born in 1933 and when you look at him he just looks older than his claimed age. We have 1930 as the "official" record but I wouldn't bet my house on it being correct.raylawpc wrote:The US Census Records do not show Liston in 1930. He shows up for the first time in the 1940 US Census, and is listed at ten-years-old.Controversial wrote:Is it just me but nothing happens when I click on your links?SolomonDeedes wrote:As Raylawpc says, there's no longer any mystery about Liston's age, the documentary evidence is pretty straightforward:
http://img6. .us/img6/1402/liston3.jpg
April 1930, there's Tobin and Helen Liston living in Arkansas, with all their kids down to little 6-month old Curtis but, of course, no Charles.
http://img96. .us/img96/2692/liston1.jpg
http://img692. .us/img692/8007/liston2z.jpg
Spin forward 10 years, there they are again. Curtis' age is given as 11 when, obviously, he must actually have been 10 and a half. After him comes Charles. His age is given as 10 but given his brother's age he can't actually have been more than 9 and a half.
So Charles Liston was born in late 1930 and was 32 years old when he won his rematch with Floyd Patterson. It will take more than making up quotes by Bill Faversham to alter that fact.
Listons mother claimed he was born in 1928 making him 36 when he fought Ali. There was also a marriage certificate doing the rounds which had him born in 1928.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 28 Nov 2013, 06:47
If the 1940 census was all we had then I'd agree that he could easily be a year or two older than it says. But I don't see a way round the fact that he's not listed on the 1930 census but his elder brother is there with his age given as 6 months.Controversial wrote: Yes I've seen the census before however they are notoriously inaccurate and self reported so people could say anything they wanted to. There's travellers born in the UK in very recent years that don't know their real age. In that era, and from the family he came from, records just weren't kept. There have always been questions asked about his age, as mentioned before his mother said it was 1928. For years Liston said he was born in 1933 and when you look at him he just looks older than his claimed age. We have 1930 as the "official" record but I wouldn't bet my house on it being correct.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 28 Nov 2013, 07:00
I don't think anyone knows with 100% accuracy. Census just isn't accurate, especially in that era with no proper records and with people self reporting that often couldn't read or write. An interview in April 1965 with his wife Geraldine she said he was 33 in May 1965 making him born in 1932. She claimed she had his birth record which makes him younger than the census claimed.SolomonDeedes wrote:If the 1940 census was all we had then I'd agree that he could easily be a year or two older than it says. But I don't see a way round the fact that he's not listed on the 1930 census but his elder brother is there with his age given as 6 months.Controversial wrote: Yes I've seen the census before however they are notoriously inaccurate and self reported so people could say anything they wanted to. There's travellers born in the UK in very recent years that don't know their real age. In that era, and from the family he came from, records just weren't kept. There have always been questions asked about his age, as mentioned before his mother said it was 1928. For years Liston said he was born in 1933 and when you look at him he just looks older than his claimed age. We have 1930 as the "official" record but I wouldn't bet my house on it being correct.
"And all this about how old he is. I know how old Charles is—I've got his birth record. He's 33 on May 8. If he's 40 years old he's catching up to his mother pretty fast."
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 28 Nov 2013, 15:23
Keep digging that hole . . . There is no caption and the words "(Circa 1950)" do not show up in connection with the photograph. People can see for themselves:Il Duce wrote:Ray
The caption had a (Circa 1950) next to the photo.
You didn't call me out on anything.
Many photo's and pictures of Charles "Sonny' Liston have improper or no correct dates.
You have been wrong 'numerous' times yourself.
http://www.missouripentours.com/infamous-inmates.php
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 28 Nov 2013, 15:24
SolomonDeedes wrote:If the 1940 census was all we had then I'd agree that he could easily be a year or two older than it says. But I don't see a way round the fact that he's not listed on the 1930 census but his elder brother is there with his age given as 6 months.Controversial wrote: Yes I've seen the census before however they are notoriously inaccurate and self reported so people could say anything they wanted to. There's travellers born in the UK in very recent years that don't know their real age. In that era, and from the family he came from, records just weren't kept. There have always been questions asked about his age, as mentioned before his mother said it was 1928. For years Liston said he was born in 1933 and when you look at him he just looks older than his claimed age. We have 1930 as the "official" record but I wouldn't bet my house on it being correct.
Re: Sonny Liston '1963' vs. Muhammad Ali '1978' {Both Age 36}
Posted: 29 Nov 2013, 12:24
That's not Sonny's actual age. We don't know his actual age. But the only documentary evidence available (U.S. Census) indicates he was 33 or 34 years old at that time.