BoxRec

Earlier Jaw break serves Ali's story better
Later jaw break Serves Kenny's.

However, the idea that the person punching can know when the break happened is a bit harder to buy than the person on the receiving end knowing when the wound was inflicted.

So Ali's version is at least more credible for that reason alone.

Unless of course, Ali is lying. In Norton's case, it's not really a lie, he just believes it to be true.

In Ali's case he would certainly know when it happened. And remember, once broken it is far more vulnerable, and additional damage is possible even likely along the way. So the 11th round "jaw breaker" could certainly have put a lot of icing on the cake.

I don't think either man would lie about this. But I do think that only one of them knows for sure.

The only other person who could possibly know would be Il Duce.

Sorry, but Il Duce..that is hearsay.....and you know it.

Anyone can tell a lie. Might be Ali...not sayin' it aint....I am saying that there is no way for Joe or Kenny to know. No matter how much we may like them. They are guessing. Not lying, but guessing.

Ali knows. And he says it was earlier. No matter how much you hate him or mildly not care for the man....he may be telling the truth. And he's the only one who knows for sure.

Well...except for you.

But this is simply Norton's opinion....assuming you have properly researched. And I do believe that is Norton's take on the matter. No surprise that Joe concurs...as they had each other's back on most things Ali.

Ah....so Occams razor is used by you to support the likelihood of lying.

In my case I used the same thing to support the person who knows for sure.


Does this mean that you and Ali are the only two that know for sure....or is this simply your best guess?


Your words"I'm going with"....leads me to believe you are taking this on faith.

Well on occasions things do seem to elude your beagle eye.

E.G. The great toe steppin' moment.

You've never seen it, or admitted it's potential physics. You simply rationalize to your delight.

I'm not even sure you think UnoWho delivered a right smart beating to CW, ET. RD....etc etc.....

So for the record....You know this jaw thing? Or it is your best guess?]

Pick one and clear this up for me.

Let me get this straight. The guy who broke someone's jaw, knows more about when the jaw was broken, than the guy who's jaw it was? Is that what your sayin lil duce?

Keith...he's not exactly "sayin" it....but he appears to be "typin'" it.

BoxBuzz wrote:Keith...he's not exactly "sayin" it....but he appears to be "typin'" it.

:

Il Duce wrote:You could call up Muhammad Ali and ask him to confirm it.

But then again, 'once a liar, always a liar'.

Show me a person that has never told a lie.

Mr Duce. Does your fixation with Ali, give something to your life? Does it make you feel better as a person?

Il Duce wrote: People are still writing about the JFK Assassination Conspiracy, the Holocaust, the Lunar Moon Landing, 911
and host of other events that can't be fully explained.

Nutters like you maybe?

Nutters.......hmm might have something there GC.

On a purely physics level, there is much more to the actual recorded impact than some want to see.

Lot's of muscle reaction, in an order that can not be forged, leads any serious forensic detective to the unmistakable conclusion that the punch was not invalid. Not to say that Sonny didn't wuss out in an extreme manner as well. A perfect storm of a man with a shaky psyche, being rattled, and then losing heart. That's the Occam's razor solution. Plain, simple, and without a great deal of mystery.

But if one can't even see a toe step, I'm afraid the only thing one CAN see is the man in the grassy knoll.

Il Duce wrote:I thought Muhammad Ali 'turned' his back on Kenny Norton more than few times in Round 12.

It was a sign of fear, cowering while turning sideways.

Howard Cosell screaming that 'blood' was in Muhammad's mouth, and he was now 'forced'
to taste his own oil.

The mouth-guard was loosely held, and was falling out of Muhammad's mouth.

The San Diego Coliseum was roaring...............

Don't forget my grand unification theory....Ali knows his jaw is fractured early on.....and Kenny nails it into a compound fracture in the 11th and is now in on the secret. Could explain both claims.....and no bad guys. Arthur Abraham managed to sail through such an event....it's not unprecedented.

Il Duce wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:Mr Duce. Does your fixation with Ali, give something to your life? Does it make you feel better as a person?

People are still writing about the JFK Assassination Conspiracy, the Holocaust, the Lunar Moon Landing, 911
and host of other events that can't be fully explained.

Can you really explain the Muhammad Ai - Sonny Liston II bout in Lewiston, Maine.

Is there any danger of you answering the questions?

Il Duce wrote:I would like to stick to the 'broken jaw', and Muhammad Ali turning away numerous times.

This exhibited fear and in 'cowering way'.

Not the way a so-called Champion should portray himself.

I really do think that this is trolling. It's one long constant hate ridden rant.

Well unless his jaw was broken much earlier....and it started to wear on him by then.

In which case.....pretty stiff upper lip he showed....he kept calm and carried on.

Of course you know what happened, so my thoughts are simply the dabblings of an over active imagination.



Wait.....I forgot....I'm not at all sure that you really know......you're just so good at this, I was almost suckered in.

I gotta be more on the ball....whew.... that was a close one!

BoxBuzz wrote:Well unless his jaw was broken much earlier....and it started to wear on him by then.

In which case.....pretty stiff upper lip he showed....he kept calm and carried on.

Of course you know what happened, so my thoughts are simply the dabblings of an over active imagination.



Wait.....I forgot....I'm not at all sure that you really know......you're just so good at this, I was almost suckered in.

I gotta be more on the ball....whew.... that was a close one!

I've got this crazy theory that Ali knows when his jaw was broken. Madness, I know.

Il Duce wrote:Muhammad Ali

Held up 'two' fingers to form '11'.

This was to indicate the Round that he had his jaw broken.

I mean, seriously, that's world class comedy right there.

Il Duce wrote:Muhammad Ali

Held up 'two' fingers to form '11'.

This was to indicate the Round that he had his jaw broken.

Your not gonna find better forensic evidence than that! Case closed!

Wait a minute....does the peace sign really mean 11? Or was he playin "Scissors, Paper, Rock with Norton.....? IN which case Norton has paper revealed on the left hand...but hiding rock in his right.

You can't have it both ways Kenny......

Are you trying to lead me down your primrose path again? When am I gonna learn?

BoxBuzz wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Muhammad Ali

Held up 'two' fingers to form '11'.

This was to indicate the Round that he had his jaw broken.

Your not gonna find better forensic evidence than that! Case closed!

Wait a minute....does the peace sign really mean 11? Or was he playin "Scissors, Paper, Rock with Norton.....? IN which case Norton has paper revealed on the left hand...but hiding rock in his right.

You can't have it both ways Kenny......

Are you trying to lead me down your primrose path again? When am I gonna learn?

I see Kenny pointing his crotch towards Ali, which clearly means Kenny is Bi-Sexual and he's wearing sunglasses, to hide his longing looks at Ali. I won't even go into the hand on hip and bulge in his slacks.

While I don't pretend to know exactly what round the break occured (apparently only Ali and Il Duce are privy to that knowledge) I tend to believe Ali's version is more credible than Norton's.
This is based on what transpired during the original ABC broadcast of the bout in 1973.

I haven't reviewed the tape in years but I vividly recall Howard Cosell questioning fairly early in the fight whether Ali's jaw was injured. His suspicions were raised on evidence of blood inside Ali's mouth and the slack manner the ex-champ held it.
At one point---possibly between the 5th and 6th rounds---Cosell finally asks trainer Angelo Dundee if anything was wrong with Ali's jaw.

Dundee, of course, denies a problem, but that only makes sense. Why would he alert Norton's corner on live national television, that Ali's jaw was possibly broken?
And, in addition, if the ringside physician became aware of the injury, he might intervene and order the bout halted. Dundee was protecting his fighter's chances.

So this little remembered observation by Cosell and his quick follow-up questioning of Dundee strongly supports Ali's historical insistance that the break occured during or near the 2nd round.
Norton would maintain that the injury happened in either the 11th or 12th round, but he had no way of truly knowing. It appears to be self-serving, designed to strengthen the magnitude of his overall performance that afternoon.

Kudos to the sharp-eyed Cosell for effectively debunking Norton's claims and lending total creedance to Ali's version.
Although he's never received due credit, Cosell actually set the controversial record straight more than 40 years ago.

Il Duce wrote:A disappointed Mrs. Muhammad Ali {aka 'Glory Hole Gary'}

Glory Hole Gary!

Did you know him well?

Il Duce wrote:I strongly disagree Senor Pipino

Muhammad Ali was 'loudly' talking to Kenny throughout the bout, and there was no apparent problem
with the jaw on it's hinges.

And if the jaw was broken earlier, there would be no way in Hell that Muhammad Ali could have withstood
those blows in the middle and later Rounds without 'quitting'.

The blood in Muhammad's mouth early in the bout, does not mean it was broken. And the blood at the time
was not significant.

Round 12

As Kenny Norton drove Muhammad Ali {on wobbling legs} from the front right 'Corner' to the back
Ropes {2:05 Mark}, Kenny unloaded with a vicious overhand right to Muhammad's jaw. Muhammad then
wobbled into the back right 'Neutral-Corner'.

Howard Cosell {2:06}........... "Oh, that right hurt Muhammad."

Kenny unloaded with a left-right, and then Muhammad slid to his left, sideways to the front right 'Corner'.

Howard Cosell {2:13 Mark}.... "Oh Muhammad is hurt and tired. There's blood in Ali's mouth."

You are forensically quite challenged I see. Especially when you have that big chunk of bias in your eye. The jaw can be broken in a thousand ways, some fractures more endurable than others, and all I agree with you on is that in the 11th, Norton went all out to press what he sensed was his best shot....to finish whatever he may have began with the possible jaw damage. Certainly Cosell's statements had made it to his ears by then. And he did crank up the pain a notch on Ali at least in that round.

The inverse of your assumptions are equally if not a bit more likely. That Ali once again showed more in a defeat than he often showed in even his best victories.

It is not impossible that your imaginings are true but something that qualifies as "not impossible" is not the gold standard for credibility lol..... you are simply taking somewhat of a shot in the dark when you underwrite your theory as gospel.

These routines of yours have been described by some here as insanity. And others as entertaining...and I suppose a few find you informative. But I'm guess that last category of folks are fresh off the bus. I just think you don't have enough to do with your time. More research would be a pretty good alternative when it comes to your investments in time.

I think you have a problem with the idea of a Barnum and Baily promotional style personality actually being one of the most competent fighters ever. But the recorded record does seem to confirm that it is indeed the case.

Another one of the best fighters in History was Carlos Monzon...a convicted murderer. Haven't had the benefit of seeing you go after him for his unseemly life style.....but it wouldn't much change Monzon's demonstrated skills.

My favorite fighter of all time was rather soft spoken, straightforward and humble. But I don't hold that against Archie Moore one iota.

The only "film" that appears relevant in this discussion, at least by way of your "reports", is the seemingly near opaque "film" of bias that lathers over your eyes whenever you see this man in action.

Maybe it's the "schmias", that you refer to? Time to get thicker glasses?

What you have put together here is subjective. Period. And when faced with choices, you spin only in one direction on this subject.

Il Duce wrote:A disappointed Mrs. Muhammad Ali {aka 'Glory Hole Gary'}

"That boy Kenny Norton. Look what he did to my man. Broke his damn jaw."

Maybe this "Gary" dude can come on here and educate us all on when exactly the jaw got broke.