Marvis Frazier - Why pushed into the deep end so quick?

[Controversial]

Turned pro aged 20 and matched against a very experienced, albeit declining Bugner in only his 10th fight which he won. He then fought Holmes in a world title fight straight after. Even after losing to Holmes he was soon fighting decent guys like Tillis, Smith and Ribalta before facing the KO king Tyson. He fitted a lot in, in his 21 fight career retiring at only 28 (and he missed 1982 through injury).

What's the story behind the big rush?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Maybe Joe didn't want him having a long career full of punishment. His pop moved quickly through the ranks as well. Marvis was a solid amateur and he held his own past the two guys he never would have beaten.

[keithmoonhangover]

Turned pro aged 20 and matched against a very experienced, albeit declining Bugner in only his 10th fight which he won. He then fought Holmes in a world title fight straight after. Even after losing to Holmes he was soon fighting decent guys like Tillis, Smith and Ribalta before facing the KO king Tyson. He fitted a lot in, in his 21 fight career retiring at only 28 (and he missed 1982 through injury).

What's the story behind the big rush?

Larry looked like he was on the slide at the time, they might have thought he was ripe for the taking.

[drunkenpiper36]

After Holmes declined to fight Greg Page and was stripped of the WBC title, he decided to break away from Don King productions and do his own promoting. He called up Joe Frazier on the phone personally and offered him and his son a nice payday for the fight... The rest is history..

[bollox]

Joe didn't believe in messing around. He once said "if you can't take a good asswhipping you shouldn't be a fighter"

But I think his biggest mistake was trying to turn Marvis into Joe mark II, which was never going to happen

[Ambling Alp II]

His career was mismanaged throughout his career. He should have been fighting more frequently early in his career. The Holmes fight was too early. Holmes was just starting to slip and was still way above the inexperienced Frazier's level. He had almost no chance of winning that fight at that time.
After that he did have some success against some decent fighters, but he was not steered toward a title shot against one of the WBS champs. He actually had the talent to have a chance to beat one of them.
It was shame because he had some ability.

[Nile4000]

Turned pro aged 20 and matched against a very experienced, albeit declining Bugner in only his 10th fight which he won. He then fought Holmes in a world title fight straight after. Even after losing to Holmes he was soon fighting decent guys like Tillis, Smith and Ribalta before facing the KO king Tyson. He fitted a lot in, in his 21 fight career retiring at only 28 (and he missed 1982 through injury).

What's the story behind the big rush?

Probably knew that, despite the talent he had, Marvis' ceiling wasn't that high.So they tried to make a rush of it while they had the chance.In retrospect, his losing to James Broad may have been a blessing, because Stevenson may have crucified him.

[gilgamesh]

Joe didn't believe in messing around. He once said "if you can't take a good asswhipping you shouldn't be a fighter"

But I think his biggest mistake was trying to turn Marvis into Joe mark II, which was never going to happen

I adore Joe Frazier as a fighter, but he sucked as a trainer. He basically only knew one way to teach guys to fight. Fight like I did, or I just don't know what to tell you.

Marvis definitely should've been more of a boxer, than the pressure fighter Joe was trying to turn him into.

[Flump]

In his autobiography Joe states that he took the fights while they were there for the money, and that you have to take the opportunities while they are there. Also Marvis was increasingly injury prone. He also thought the Tyson fight was worth the risk as Marvis had beaten Bonecrusher Smith after getting his jaw busted in round 5 and had hung tough.

He also cites Buster Mathis, Henry Tillman and Tyrell Biggs as guys who kept the amateur style and 'Couldn't knock down the price of a serape in a Tijuana flea market' so he got Marvis fighting more aggressively to make him marketable.

Whether Marvis would have been a champion with his amateur style is open to debate, would he have ever beaten Holmes or Tyson? Very doubtful.

[yancey]

Joe didn't believe in messing around. He once said "if you can't take a good asswhipping you shouldn't be a fighter"

But I think his biggest mistake was trying to turn Marvis into Joe mark II, which was never going to happen

I adore Joe Frazier as a fighter, but he sucked as a trainer. He basically only knew one way to teach guys to fight. Fight like I did, or I just don't know what to tell you.

Marvis definitely should've been more of a boxer, than the pressure fighter Joe was trying to turn him into.

Agree.

[hhaehre]

Joe didn't believe in messing around. He once said "if you can't take a good asswhipping you shouldn't be a fighter"

But I think his biggest mistake was trying to turn Marvis into Joe mark II, which was never going to happen

I adore Joe Frazier as a fighter, but he sucked as a trainer. He basically only knew one way to teach guys to fight. Fight like I did, or I just don't know what to tell you.

Marvis definitely should've been more of a boxer, than the pressure fighter Joe was trying to turn him into.

I'm sure you are correct about Joe as a trainer but would it really have mattered? Marvis lost to prime Holmes and prime Tyson, a fate that he would have shared with almost every other heavyweight who ever laced on a pair of gloves. Overall I think Marvis is a little underrated because he lost badly to Holmes and Tyson but he really had a quite good career and beat some good fighters too. I don't think he would have done better by boxing more, he reached his potential imo.

[wouter]

In an interview with KO magazine some years ago, Joe Frazier said Marvis was rushed because he wasn't likely to have a long career because of a chronic neck injury.

[Dart340]

I bought the bait at the time and thought Marvis had a good chance to pressure and outwork the aging Holmes and I wonder if the Frazier camp didn't harbor the same hope. All you had to do, in retrospect, is pop a tape in of the Leon Spinks-Holmes defense and you would've seen a premonition of how the Frazier fight was likely to go.

[Chuck1052]

I don't think that it would have mattered if Marvis Frazier wasn't pushed into deep waters so soon. He simply didn't have the durability to do well when facing the best fighters in the heavyweight division.

- Chuck Johnston

[Ambling Alp II]

He wasn't going to beat Tyson, or Holmes. However, he had some ability. He beat some fringe contenders, and even beat Bonecrusher Smith. He would have had a chance to win a WBS title. It would not have been that surprsing for him to beat say Tony Tubbs or Greg Page. Those guys were all inconsistent and at times put in some lackluster performances.

[drunkenpiper36]

He wasn't going to beat Tyson, or Holmes. However, he had some ability. He beat some fringe contenders, and even beat Bonecrusher Smith. He would have had a chance to win a WBS title. It would not have been that surprsing for him to beat say Tony Tubbs or Greg Page. Those guys were all inconsistent and at times put in some lackluster performances.

If carefully orchestrated Marvis Frazier could have extended his career, beaten some more top guys and yes, even captured a fragment title. Had the Holmes fight not occurred in 1983, and Marvis fought a hand picked selection of good opponents, he might have had a case for fighting Michael Spinks around 1986-1987. His family name combined with a nice winning streak might have drawn enough interest for such a fight.

[Cap]

Sons of famous champions almost never do well. Maybe too much pressure to emulate their famous dads.

[drunkenpiper36]

Sons of famous champions almost never do well. Maybe too much pressure to emulate their famous dads.

Things might have panned out better for Marvis if his father hadn't pressured him to change his style to one that didn't suit him.

[Syntax Error]

Sons of famous champions almost never do well. Maybe too much pressure to emulate their famous dads.

Things might have panned out better for Marvis if his father hadn't pressured him to change his style to one that didn't suit him.

Spot on.

Marvis was actually a very decent boxer, but Smokin' Joe insisted on turning him into a mini-me, which was fatal.

Joe Frazier just seemed hell bent on making his charges fight like him.

PS: Did he do the same with Hector Frazier (aka Joe Frazier Jr) as I don't know a lot about Hector's career.

[Ambling Alp II]

Hard to say why he pushed Marvis so fast. Not sure if he thought about what was best for Marvis.
When Marvis was in the 1980 Olympic Trials (the U.S. ended up boycotting the Olympics) he fought James Broad on National TV. Broad scored a devastating knockout. Marvis was down for quite a while as medical personnel treated him and it looked pretty serious. Joe was interviewed while this was going and didn't even to seem to be concerned.

[Nile4000]

If they put Marvis in the ring with a Tucker, or Tubbs, at that time, he would have been exposed real quick. Even a Mitch Green.

[drunkenpiper36]

If they put Marvis in the ring with a Tucker, or Tubbs, at that time, he would have been exposed real quick. Even a Mitch Green.

I think Marvis might have done ok against some of those guys.. He did after all beat Smith, Tillis, Ribalta et all. Witherspoon is definitely a guy I'd keep him away from.

[Nile4000]

If they put Marvis in the ring with a Tucker, or Tubbs, at that time, he would have been exposed real quick. Even a Mitch Green.

I think Marvis might have done ok against some of those guys.. He did after all beat Smith, Tillis, Ribalta et all. Witherspoon is definitely a guy I'd keep him away from.

Definitely, along with Pinklon Thomas, and Trevor Berbick.

[Dubblechin]

I read that Holmes had done so poorly against a green Tim Witherspoon (who Frazier had beaten as an amateur), that Frazier's people thought Marvis had a shot.

People forget that Marvis Frazier was a favorite to win the gold medal in 1980.

His amateur record was 56-2. That second loss came in his last amateur bout.

Before that, he'd only lost one decision to Tony Tubbs. He also beat Tubbs, Witherspoon, Jimmy Clark, Chris McDonald and Mitch "Blood" Green. People not only thought he'd beat Stevenson, they thought Frazier would race to the title.

But when he lost to James Broad (in the Olympic Trials), the punch had the same affect as someone hitting their head after diving in a shallow pool. He was briefly paralyzed. In fact, he remained on the floor staring at his father, unable to move his arms or legs. That happened again when he was sparring in Philadelphia with Jimmy Young. So he had to have neck surgery. He probably shouldn't have turned pro.

But then he went 19-2 as a pro, beating Bugner, Tillis, Bonecrusher Smith, and avenging his loss to Broad.

He only lost to Holmes and Tyson. He lost to them sensationally, but still.

In his combined pro and amateur career, Marvis Frazier was 75-4. The only guys who beat him who he didn't also have a win over were Holmes and Tyson. That's not too shabby.

[Tomasino]

Good post and agree 100%. He showed guts continuing boxing with a neck injury.