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Kid Norfolk
Posted: 04 May 2004, 20:44
by Eric the Viking
kovit wrote:Can you please tell me right now Silkov about how tall is "The Joplin Ghost" Jeff Clarke standing in height?
I have no idea how tall was "The Joplin Ghost" Jeff Clarke standing in height, but I was looking at his BoxRecord, and that that caused me to look at records of some of the other guys he fought, and ... well, you know how it goes.
On
this bio of Kid Norfolk written by Herbert G. Goldman and printed in the September 2000 issue of Boxing Digest, it says
"The following year (1915) saw Norfolk face increasingly rough opposition, as top black fighters made repeated trips to Panama in search of lucrative contests denied them in the U.S. Norfolk lost his title when outpointed by Jeff Clarke, the famous "Joplin Ghost," but regained it in a return go a year and a half later. In between he knocked out Black Gunboat Smith (later well known in Chile) and outpointed tall Bill Tate, among his other victories."
But
Norfolk's BoxRecord lists no bouts for 1915. In fact there are numerous differences between the two records. Here is Norfolk's ring record according to the above URL - the record appears to be a copy of the one from the CBZ database - could one of the eds. look into this? Thanks.
Code: Select all
RING RECORD: 55 wins - 14 losses - 16 ND's - 2 draw - (89 total bouts) *53-13-3, 14 ND's (83 total)*
unknown 1914 Jack Livingston unknown W 10
unknown 1914 Tommy O'Conner unknown W 20
unknown 1914 Young Joe Gans unknown Exh. 6
1915
unknown 1915 Jack Louden unknown KO 3
unknown 1915 Roughhouse Ware unknown W 25
unknown 1915 Jack Herrick unknown W 20
unknown 1915 Jeff Clark unknown L 20
1916
unknown 1916 Young Roughhouse unknown KO 2
unknown 1916 Young Gunboat Smith unknown KO 2
unknown 1916 Miltant Durant unknown KO 3
unknown 1916 Jim Briggs unknown KO 4
unknown 1916 Arthur Pelky unknown KO 13
unknown 1916 Roughhouse Ware unknown W 25
unknown 1916 Bill Tate unknown W 20
unknown 1916 Jeff Clark unknown W 20
unknown 1916 Ambres Belsa unknown Draw 6
unknown 1916 Young Sam Langford unknown Exh. 6
1917
Jan 10 1917 Sam McVey Colon ND 6
Feb 11 1917 Arthur Pelky Panama KO 13
Apr 30 1917 Sailor Grande Roches. KO 5
May 10 1917 Morris Tasco Baltim. KO 5
Jun 4 1917 Tom Cowler Roches. ND 10
Jun 25 1917 Tom Cowler Roches. ND 10
Jul 19 1917 Tom Cowler Buffalo KO 8
Jul 20 1917 Wild Burt Kenny NewYork ND 10
Jul 30 1917 Wild Burt Kenny Roches. ND 10
Aug 4 1917 Gunboat Smith Buffalo ND 10
Aug 16 1917 Gus Christie Buffalo ND 10
Aug 21 1917 Gunboat Smith Roches. ND 10
Sep 24 1917 George Ashe Roches. ND 10
Oct 16 1917 Billy Miske Boston W 12
Oct 26 1917 Johnny Espin NewYork KO 7
Nov 6 1917 Tom Cowler Provid. ND 12
Dec 4 1917 Zulu Kid Mass. W 10
Dec 17 1917 Sam Langford Denver KO'd by 2
1918
Mar 25 1918 Jack Thompson Philad. ND 6
Apr 5 1918 George Robinson Boston W 12
Apr 15 1918 George Christian Philad. KO 3
Apr 16 1918 Porky Flynn Boston W 12
Apr 22 1918 Bill Tate Baltim. W 10
May 14 1918 George Ashe Boston KO 3
Jul 16 1918 Jim Johnson NewYork Exh. 4
Jul 19 1918 Joe Jeannette Jer.Cit ND 8
Oct 18 1918 Joe Jeannette W.Hobo. ND 8
Nov 19 1918 Clay Turner Boston L 12
1920
unknown 1920 Bill Tate unknown W 10
unknown 1920 Jeff Clark unknown W 15
unknown 1920 Billy Miske unknown ND 10
1921
unknown 1921 Jamaica Kid unknown W 15
unknown 1921 Clem Johnson unknown W 10
unknown 1921 Jamaica Kid unknown W 10
Aug 29 1921 Harry Greb Pitts. ND 10 (W news) Norfolk weighed 179 pounds.Greb weighed 162. The referee was Yock Henniger.
unknown 1921 Lee Anderson unknown KO'd by 9
1922
unknown 1922 Clay Turner unknown KO 4
unknown 1922 Clay Turner unknown ND 10
unknown 1922 John Lester Johnson unknown KO 1
unknown 1922 John Lester Johnson unknown W 12
unknown 1922 Pinkie Lewis unknown KO 2
unknown 1922 Jack Taylor unknown Draw 10
unknown 1922 Pinkie Lewis unknown KO 5
unknown 1922 Lee Anderson unknown W 10
unknown 1922 George Lawson unknown KO 5
unknown 1922 Larry Williams unknown ND 8
unknown 1922 Harry Wills unknown KO'd by 2
unknown 1922 George Ward unknown KO 2
unknown 1922 Lee Anderson unknown W 10
unknown 1922 George Ward unknown KO 3
1923
Jan 31 1923 Wolf Larsen NewYork LF 2
Mar 27 1923 Jack Taylor NewYork W 12
Mar 31 1923 Wolf Larsen Portla. KO 1
Apr 24 1923 Battling McCreary Boston L 10
May 8 1923 Tiger Flowers Ohio KO 1
Jul 14 1923 Jamaica Kid NewYork KO 2
Aug 23 1923 Tut Jackson Baltim. KO 3
Sept 1923 Kid Nolan Baltim. KO 3
Nov 20 1923 Battling Siki NewYork W 15
1924
Jan 9 1924 Sidney Grant Baltim. KO 2
Feb 8 1924 Battling McCreary Boston W 10
Feb 23 1924 Lee Anderson NewYork W 12
Apr 18 1924 Harry Greb Boston WF 6 (Both men weighed exactly 172 and 3/4th) Referee was Jack Sheehan.
May 12 1924 Bob Lawson Buffalo LF 10
May 28 1924 Tut Jackson Ohio KO 2
Jun 6 1924 Battling Kavanaugh Illino. ND 6
Jul 17 1924 Joe Lawson Atl.Ci. KO 6
Sep 9 1924 Battling McCreary Boston W 10
Dec 9 1924 Tommy Gibbons NewYork KO'd by 6
1925
Mar 14 1925 Bob Lawson NewYork KO'd by 1
May 6 1925 Ray Pelky Calif. KO 5
May 25 1925 Jack Reddick Sask. W 12
June 1 1925 Frankie Farmer Portl. W 10
Jun 17 1925 Floyd Johnson Calif. LF 4
Sep 21 1925 Frank Moody NewYork KO'd by 4
1926
Mar 19 1926 Ted Moore Calif. KO'd by 4
There are also lots of other oldtime fighters's records (and I like the fact that they have pictures) on that site - might be worth going through and looking for other missing/different results:
http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html
Click on the "Other Fighters" link in the sidebar. Kovit will appreciate that many of the fighters' records come with a pull-down "tale of the tape."
Posted: 05 May 2004, 15:56
by tonyevs
Interesting to see they have his height at 5ft 8in.
It is listed anywhere from 5ft 7in up to 5ft 9in, depending where you look, I guess they have taken the average.
Very good record, I think a little over middle was his ideal weight but fought the big guys because thats where the money was, but as his record reads, the big guys were just to big for him.
Posted: 06 May 2004, 09:24
by The Keed
Well Eric, boxrec's record does note, "this record may be incomplete/inaccurate" at the bottom... that's a good enough answer for me!
Posted: 06 May 2004, 11:14
by Eric the Viking
The Keed wrote:Well Eric, boxrec's record does note, "this record may be incomplete/inaccurate" at the bottom... that's a good enough answer for me!
Nice try, Keed, but I thought the aim of BoxRec was to have as accurate a record for each fighter (especially the all-time greats) as possible.
So hop to it. ;)
Posted: 06 May 2004, 12:43
by The Keed
Eric the Viking wrote:The Keed wrote:Well Eric, boxrec's record does note, "this record may be incomplete/inaccurate" at the bottom... that's a good enough answer for me!
Nice try, Keed, but I thought the aim of BoxRec was to have as accurate a record for each fighter (especially the all-time greats) as possible.
So hop to it. ;)
Is Norfolk's record
inaccurate, or just incomplete?
Posted: 06 May 2004, 12:46
by The Keed
Eric the Viking wrote:Nice try, Keed, but I thought the aim of BoxRec was to have as accurate a record for each fighter (especially the all-time greats) as possible.
It is... that's why it takes us so long to get records finished... we don't add anything unless we get it verified first.
Those boobs at cyberboxing just write whatever the hell they want...
Posted: 06 May 2004, 14:13
by Eric the Viking
The Keed wrote:Is Norfolk's record inaccurate, or just incomplete?
Looks like a bit of both, but precisely how much is hard to tell, because as you say, the CBZ record is likely flawed, too. Here are the differences (aside from small stuff, e.g. CBZ lists his final fight as LKO4, whereas BoxRec has it LDQ4) I can see, just for the last few years if Norfolk's career. Note that when I say a fight is "missing" from either the CBZ or BR record, I'm not implying that it should be added - just that it's not listed. Obviously you'd want confirmation that the fight took place before adding it:
1924-09-09: CBZ has just W10 vs. McCreary, BR has that *plus* ND6 vs. Kavanaugh. CBZ has a date if 1924-06-06 for the latter bout.
1924-07-17: CBZ has WKO6 vs. Lawson, BR has WKO8.
1924-02-23: CBZ has W12 vs. Anderson, BR has W10.
1923-08-23: WKO3 vs. Tut Jackson missing from BR.
1922: CBZ missing the Smaulding, Green and Flowers fights. BR lists only other fights that year as being vs. Wills, Taylor and Anderson (one fight only). CBZ lists 14 fights (but no dtaes) for 1922, BR lists just 6 fights.
1921-12-30: CBZ has only the W10 and W15 vs. Jamaica Kid, not the W8 here.
1921: CBZ missing the Jack Ward, George Ward and both Pinky Lewis bouts listed in BR. CBZ lists a W10 vs. Clem Johnson, missing from BR.
1920-09-03: W12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.
1920-06-22: WKO4 vs. Blackburn missing from CBZ.
1920-06-14: I suspect this is the same WKO1 vs. Johnson which CBZ has as being sometime in 1922.
1920-05-17: D12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.
1920-01-13: WKO4 vs. Clark missing from CBZ.
Lots of additional differences for years earlier than that. In many cases I suspect the CBZ record is wrong (because of the lack of a definite date), but esp. the fights listed in CBZ which are missing from BR should be worth looking into.
Posted: 06 May 2004, 15:20
by The Keed
Eric the Viking wrote:The Keed wrote:Is Norfolk's record inaccurate, or just incomplete?
Looks like a bit of both, but precisely how much is hard to tell, because as you say, the CBZ record is likely flawed, too. Here are the differences (aside from small stuff, e.g. CBZ lists his final fight as LKO4, whereas BoxRec has it LDQ4) I can see, just for the last few years if Norfolk's career. Note that when I say a fight is "missing" from either the CBZ or BR record, I'm not implying that it should be added - just that it's not listed. Obviously you'd want confirmation that the fight took place before adding it:
1924-09-09: CBZ has just W10 vs. McCreary, BR has that *plus* ND6 vs. Kavanaugh. CBZ has a date if 1924-06-06 for the latter bout.
1924-07-17: CBZ has WKO6 vs. Lawson, BR has WKO8.
1924-02-23: CBZ has W12 vs. Anderson, BR has W10.
1923-08-23: WKO3 vs. Tut Jackson missing from BR.
1922: CBZ missing the Smaulding, Green and Flowers fights. BR lists only other fights that year as being vs. Wills, Taylor and Anderson (one fight only). CBZ lists 14 fights (but no dtaes) for 1922, BR lists just 6 fights.
1921-12-30: CBZ has only the W10 and W15 vs. Jamaica Kid, not the W8 here.
1921: CBZ missing the Jack Ward, George Ward and both Pinky Lewis bouts listed in BR. CBZ lists a W10 vs. Clem Johnson, missing from BR.
1920-09-03: W12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.
1920-06-22: WKO4 vs. Blackburn missing from CBZ.
1920-06-14: I suspect this is the same WKO1 vs. Johnson which CBZ has as being sometime in 1922.
1920-05-17: D12 vs. Jamaica Kid missing from CBZ.
1920-01-13: WKO4 vs. Clark missing from CBZ.
Lots of additional differences for years earlier than that. In many cases I suspect the CBZ record is wrong (because of the lack of a definite date), but esp. the fights listed in CBZ which are missing from BR should be worth looking into.
I would say the fights that boxrec HAS on there are accurate. If CBZ and boxrec directly contradict, I would guess boxrec is probably right.
But boxrec's record is
incomplete, meaning the editors have not been able to verify enough info about
other fights to add them there. CBZ seems much more willing to add fights on their list, even if they don't know the date or location.
I have found some mistakes on CBZ records before.
news reports
Posted: 30 Jun 2004, 17:51
by robert.snell1
I have a few newspaper pages with articles about him. if anybody wants a copy just ask.
Posted: 30 Jun 2004, 17:58
by tonyevs
Yes please Rob.
Posted: 01 Jul 2004, 12:12
by enrique
I HAVE A VIDEO OF NORFOLK AGAINST BILL TATE. HE WAS A PRETTY GOOD FIGHTER AND IS CREDITED WITH HAVING BEEN THE FIGHTER THAT BLINDED HARRY GREB.
Posted: 01 Jul 2004, 14:15
by tonyevs
He was a little better than `pretty good`.
Hence why he was so avoided.
Posted: 01 Jul 2004, 17:15
by Boxscribe
I may be mistaken, but I think the CBZ record was researched by Kevin Smith. He is one of the top guys for the early black fighters. I would suspect his record would be the more accurate. Boxre is not 100% for all fighters.
Norfolk
Posted: 02 Jul 2004, 00:26
by RowanSmith
The record above is not from the CBZ or me. CBZ has never posted a record for Norfolk. The one from the Harry Greb website was authored by the fellow who runs that site. I don't think his aim was to post a complete record, but more to give a sampling of Norfolk's career. I have never looked at the BoxRec record for the Kid. Box rec is certainly not always infallible when it comes to records and most of the fellows here and those who enter the records are also record builders for the CBZ. I also take exception to the "boobs over at the CBZ comment".
By the way, the old story of Greb being blinded by Norfolk has always interested me, because Norfolk went into his first fight with Greb with a bad eye--an eye that eventually went blind on him. He had been thumbed by Lee Andeson just prior to his match with Greb and thus he fought Greb, both times with only one good eye. In fact, I think that it was mentioned in the newspaper reports from his first fight with Greb that he entered the ring for that bout with plaster on the eye.
Norfolk was a great fighter in my opinion. His best weight was 175 but like many of his generation he fought heavier men. He beat world champs Siki, Flowers 2x, Greb 1 win 1 ND, and defeated other tough men like Billy Miske, Gunboat Smith, Jeff Clark, Joe Jeanette, Jamaica Kid, lee Anderson, etc, etc.. etc.. I think he could have beaten any of the light-heavyweight champions from 1916-1925.
RE; Norfolk's record. I have located bouts from 1910 for Norfolk---including a few battle royals that he took part in!
Posted: 02 Jul 2004, 06:57
by wouter
In a 1926 newspaper article Greb's manager George Engle said it was not in the Kid Norfolk fight that Greb was blinded, but that Harry was thumbed in the 1922-5-12 Al Roberts fight in Boston, after which he gradually lost the sight in the right eye.
Posted: 02 Jul 2004, 11:45
by Eric the Viking
My bad - I'd assumed the record was copied from the CBZ since it uses the identical format.
Also, these BoxRec vs. CBZ jibes are counterproductive - if anything the two sites should be working together, since they both have smart dedicated folks and complement each other very well.
Boobs
Posted: 02 Jul 2004, 16:19
by Boxscribe
Sorry Kevin.
I presumed you would have posted something on Norfolk in the Black Dynamite section of the CBZ. You know the CBZ, that's the place were all those boobs hang out! The same boobs that write and publish boxing history books, are advisors on documentaries and Hollywood movies.
Man, those boobs get everywhere. :P
Posted: 02 Jul 2004, 19:18
by tonyevs
Ward was the heavier fighter than Greb, and Greb has to be congratulated for fighting him..and not just the once.
Many of the title holders avoided Ward like the plague.
Let us agree that Greb and Ward are great fighters who should be remembered more for what they achieved.
Greb-Roberts
Posted: 04 Jul 2004, 03:03
by klompton
Greb was not thumbed by Al Roberts in their 1922 bout. In fact Roberts may not have touched Greb. Greb destroyed the light heavyweight champion of Staten Island easily in their bout. There is some speculation that Greb lost sight in one of his eyes as a result of a bout other than Norfolk but Roberts isnt the one most people consider an alternative. I wouldnt buy much of what George Engle was selling. He was notorious giving the worst interviews about Greb in regards to the facts. Id say about 90 percent of what I read from Engel after he and Greb split was false or simply wrong in one way or another.
Posted: 04 Jul 2004, 07:05
by wouter
It doesn't take much to put a thumb in one's eye. The fact that Greb destroyed Roberts doesn't mean that much. What's the source for Kid Norfolk being the one that did it?
Greb-Norfolk
Posted: 04 Jul 2004, 21:55
by klompton
Grebs closest confidants and family members stated upon Grebs death that he had been blind in one eye as a result of the Norfolk fight. they maintained this throughout their lives. The only person Ive heard of referring to Al Roberts was Engle and as I said he was about the worst source of information on Greb that you could come up with.
Re: Greb-Norfolk
Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 11:59
by KOJOE90
klompton wrote:Grebs closest confidants and family members stated upon Grebs death that he had been blind in one eye as a result of the Norfolk fight. they maintained this throughout their lives. The only person Ive heard of referring to Al Roberts was Engle and as I said he was about the worst source of information on Greb that you could come up with.
Isn't it claimed that Greb said about Norfolk something like "He must have had a tougher eye than I" After their hard fought bout?
Posted: 31 Dec 2006, 12:01
by KOJOE90
