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Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 28 Dec 2013, 21:14
by Controversial
The WBC refused to sanction the Holmes and Marvis Frazier fight as they wanted Holmes to fight Greg Page. Holmes relinquished his WBC belt after fighting Frazier and accepted the newly created IBF belt and champion status. So how does the Frazier fight count as a title defence when the WBC didn't sanction it? Boxrec doesn't show it as a title fight yet Holmes is always credited as having 20 title defences?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 28 Dec 2013, 22:35
by gilgamesh
I would say because Alphabet Organizations aside, Holmes was clearly THE World Heavyweight Champion...therefore it was a fight for the Championship.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 28 Dec 2013, 22:37
by SaadOffTheDeck
As far as I remember the IBF named Holmes their champion, it wasn't a vacant situation.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 29 Dec 2013, 05:57
by Controversial
gilgamesh wrote:I would say because Alphabet Organizations aside, Holmes was clearly THE World Heavyweight Champion...therefore it was a fight for the Championship.
Except that the WBC refused to sanction it and declared it a non title fight. So presumably if Frazier won they wouldn't have given him the belt. The IBF title was handed to Holmes after the event and only after Holmes vacated the WBC title
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 29 Dec 2013, 09:19
by Controversial
Il Duce wrote:It Wasn't
It was scheduled for 10-Rounds
It was 'originally' scheduled for 12-Rounds and was to be a WBC Championship Bout. But the WBC wouldn't
sanction it, and it was dropped to a 10-Rounder.
So why is Holmes credited with 20 title defences, shouldn't it be 19?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 29 Dec 2013, 10:31
by Controversial
Il Duce wrote:CONTRO ??
Larry Holmes signed the Fight Contract to face Marvis Frazier on June 30, 1983.
Larry was the WBC Champion, but the WBC gave him until July 21, 1983 to sign Fight Contracts
to face #1 WBC-ranked - Greg Page.
Larry asked for an 'extension' and 'special consideration', because Murad Muhammad and Robert Andreolli
offered him an 'Absurd Fight Purse' of $3,100,000 to defend his Championship against Marvis Frazier.
The WBC under pressure from Don King {who had a 'Fight Contract' with Larry Holmes} pulled their sanctioning.
Don King had a $2,550,000 Contact with Larry Holmes to face Greg Page.
Larry Holmes, when told that the WBC were going to strip him,,,,,,,,,,'Laughed'.
Larry Holmes > "While the WBC takes my belt, I will be counting $3,100,000. F*** them Mexican Bandits."
So the WBC did end up sanctioning the fight? If so why does boxrec not show it as a title fight and lists it as a 10 rounder?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 29 Dec 2013, 11:59
by Controversial
Il Duce wrote:'NO' on the WBC Sanctioning
Just before the bout, 'El Generalissimo' Jose Suliaman pulled the 'rug-out'.
Jose Suliaman said that the WBC would 'not' recognize the fight as a WBC Championship bout.
But, if Marvis Frazier 'pulled off the upset', the WBC would recognize Marvis Frazier as the WBC Champion,
as long as he followed one important stipulation.
Sign with Don King.................
Haha sounds very corrupt. So do you credit Holmes as having 19 or 20 defences?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 29 Dec 2013, 12:34
by gilgamesh
Il Duce wrote:I don't count that as a Title Defense.
It wasn't sanctioned by WBC {No Sanctioning Fee's Paid} and without WBC-approved Officials.
It was to be a 10-Round Bout, but the Fight Poster and Advertising stated that it was a 12-Round Bout
for Advertising Rates.
It was a title defense. Because Holmes was THE Champion. The Title belt organizations and their corrupt nonsensical rules don't get to decide who is or who isn't Champion.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 29 Dec 2013, 13:58
by SteveO
Correct, it was NOT a WBC title fight nor an IBF title fight but it was sanctioned as a world title fight by the NSAC (Nevada State Athletic Commission). It was also recognised as a world title fight by 'Ring Magazine' and of course it was a lineal title fight and therefore should count as a title defence.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 30 Dec 2013, 12:03
by Tuan_Jim
Ring magazine recognised it as a world title fight and the media in general adhered to the rule that whenever the heavyweight champion is fighting he is making a defence of his title- irrespective of whether the sanctioning bandits attached some capital letters and a payday to the bout.
The 10 round distance is immaterial- Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey engaged in 10-round title defences.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 30 Dec 2013, 13:44
by Tuan_Jim
You can be the world's best fighter and still be unranked by the WBC- ask Riddick Bowe. You can also be a useless clubfighter controlled by Don King and magically appear in the WBC rankings- ask Peter McNeeley.
There were more deserving men than Marvis Frazier in 1983, but to dismiss him purely on the grounds that he didn't feature in the WBC's Don King-sponsored top 10 is ludicrous.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 30 Dec 2013, 14:37
by SteveO
It was a LINEAL title fight and that should be enough really. If Frazier had won he would be the 'man who beat the man' much like when Briggs got the decision over Foreman.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 30 Dec 2013, 15:30
by gilgamesh
SteveO wrote:It was a LINEAL title fight and that should be enough really. If Frazier had won he would be the 'man who beat the man' much like when Briggs got the decision over Foreman.
ExactamundO
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 30 Dec 2013, 21:49
by Controversial
I've started another post about Johnny Davis fighting world champion Joe Louis. The NYSC ruled that the title was at stake yet it isn't counted as a title defence, if it were Louis would have had 26 defences??? Is that not a lineal fight as well?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 08:26
by SteveO
That's correct Controversial. The NYSAC deemed Louis-Davis to be a world title fight according to their rules.
They had the same rule in force on July 24th 1922 when champion Jack Dempsey fought Jimmy Darcy (WPTS4) but in reality both contests were just 4 round exhibition bouts.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 08:30
by Controversial
SteveO wrote:That's correct Controversial. The NYSAC deemed Louis-Davis to be a world title fight according to their rules.
They had the same rule in force on July 24th 1922 when champion Jack Dempsey fought Jimmy Darcy (WPTS4) but in reality both contests were just 4 round exhibition bouts.
So Louis was champ, the NYSC declared it a title fight but its not counted as a defence.
Then Holmes was champ, the WBC don't acknowledge it as a title fight but it is counted as a defence?
If Davis had miraculously beaten Louis (highly unlikely I know) but wouldn't he then be deemed to be champ?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 08:33
by SteveO
Just to stir things up a bit more:
When Muhammad Ali was allowed to resume his boxing career in 1970 he was still recognised as the world heavyweight champion by 'Ring' magazine. His bouts against Quarry and Bonavena were both scheduled over the 15 round championship distance. Two more title defences for Ali?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 08:58
by Controversial
SteveO wrote:Just to stir things up a bit more:
When Muhammad Ali was allowed to resume his boxing career in 1970 he was still recognised as the world heavyweight champion by 'Ring' magazine. His bouts against Quarry and Bonavena were both scheduled over the 15 round championship distance. Two more title defences for Ali?
Isn't that slightly different though as he retired in 1970?
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 09:48
by SteveO
Actually Il Duce, as you well know, they were all LINEAR title fights regardless of whatever ANY 'ABC' organisation thought about them. All heavyweight champions throughout history had some 'easy' defences.
I knew you'd be drawn into the Ali discussion :-)
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 10:55
by ThatOne
One time Marvis and Joe Frazier were on the Howard Stern show. It was a riot. Marvis said that when Tyson rocked him and the ref asked him if he was okay he was so dazed he said "mommy, can I get off the potty now?" At the time Tyson still had the aura of invincibility and Howard asked Joe how he would beat Tyson and Joe said "hit him back." I took that to mean Joe believed many of Tyson's opponents were cowed by him and he wouldn't be.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 11:13
by Controversial
SteveO wrote:Actually Il Duce, as you well know, they were all LINEAR title fights regardless of whatever ANY 'ABC' organisation thought about them. All heavyweight champions throughout history had some 'easy' defences.
I knew you'd be drawn into the Ali discussion :-)
So using that argument then Davis should count as a title defence for Louis then shouldn't it? If Louis had lost Davis would be the "man who beat the man", regardless of the amount of rounds it was held over. Didn't someone say earlier the Frazier fight was over 10 rounds.
Article below about Louis having to win
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 20,6030096
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 15:59
by SteveO
It only counted as a title fight in New York State because of a stupid ruling. The rest of the world saw it for what it was - an exhibition!
I guess if Davis had somehow won he would have been recognised as champion by the NYSAC but everywhere else in the world would have continued recognising Joe Louis as the heavyweight champion.
Most champions had several exhibition bouts where they were in no danger of losing their title (obviously not in New York though).
I don't know how to simplify it further - it's just common sense really.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 16:09
by SteveO
Il Duce wrote:Are You Aware
That Cassius Clay was 'stripped' of his Championship 'twice' by the WBA Championship Committee.
* For the rematch with Sonny Liston
* For 'failing' to honor his commitment to his Country as a United States citizen.
The only Heavyweight Champion to be 'stripped'.......'TWICE'
Yes, the WBA couldn't wait to find excuses to srtip Ali of their belt TWICE but it didn't matter - they are just a sanctioning body and he was still lineal champion 'the man who beat the man'. If we're talking sanctioning bodies well the WBC, Ring Magazine, the EBU and the BBBC etc all continued to recognise him as champion until he announced his retirement on February 3rd 1970 - even then the 'Ring' continued to recognise him until he lost to Joe Frazier.
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 16:53
by SteveO
Just as a point of interest: The 'world' title Frazier won against Mathis was recognised by only 6 American states; New York, Maine, Pennsylvania, Texas, Massachusetts and Illinois. Most of the world and the other 44 states did not recognise Frazier as champion. Hence he only defended his NYSAC belt in New York, Pennsylvania and Texas.
To be fair, Mexico and the South American boxing commissions also agreed that Frazier was champion.
But we don't have to agree with sanctioning bodies - only when it suits us - eh El Duce!
Re: Why is Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier counted as a title fight?
Posted: 31 Dec 2013, 20:28
by sweetsci
SteveO wrote:Just to stir things up a bit more:
When Muhammad Ali was allowed to resume his boxing career in 1970 he was still recognised as the world heavyweight champion by 'Ring' magazine. His bouts against Quarry and Bonavena were both scheduled over the 15 round championship distance. Two more title defences for Ali?
To expand upon the earlier reply by Controversial, Ali announced his retirement in early 1970. At that point The Ring withdrew recognition from Ali and declared that they would acknowledge the winner of Frazier vs. Ellis as heavyweight champion. As a result Ali's victories over Quarry and Bonavena aren't generally recognized as title fights.