BoxRec

Half the problem is that Ken conversations always end up in arguments about the scoring of his 2nd and 3rd fights with Ali. And/or people dismissing him as a guy who couldn’t cope with punchers…

Despite losing to Foreman he was far better against common opponents Ali and Young…styles really making fights in these cases…

Foreman’s best wins were Frazier, Norton, Chuvalo and Moorer

Norton’s were Ali, Young, Quarry…but the other 2 Ali fights were very close and could have easily gone his way…yes Ali fans would have argued over them just as Ken’s fans argue over them now…and both sides would have solid points…so please let’s just leave it at that…

Ken did better against Young than Foreman or Ali did.

In ATG lists Foreman gets thrown in at #4 (too high for me) and Norton often doesn’t make people’s all-time top 20…

And to sort of contradict myself...

If Ken does get the nod in all three fights with Ali...what then?

I think the first fight was convincing. the second was a 50-50. the third...a win for ken but much closer than people claim.

Quite possibly. I don't see anyone who could beat him...

he is very difficult to evaluate in a fair way.
around atg15-20 for me. not that he is bad,
but others had more convincing careers,
because of course the question can be asked:
what is norton without the ali bouts?

and to throw in two controversial names:
how could he be above either klitschko?

Well, take away Frazier's performances against Ali is he top 10? Foreman's over Frazier?

Ezzard wrote:Well, take away Frazier's performances against Ali is he top 10? Foreman's over Frazier?

not the same to me. though i for one
believe many people overrate joe as
a boxer for his (unheard of) attitude.

but i do see your point ... as i said, not
easy to rate ken for me. except for one
thing: physique second to none in boxing
for whatever is worth.

Il Duce wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I think the first fight was convincing. the second was a 50-50. the third...a win for ken but much closer than people claim.

Odd,

Head-to-Head, Kenny was better than Muhammad Ali.

If there was 'No' George Foreman, Kenny would have been the Champion from 1973 thru 1978.

Not with Joe Frazier in the picture. The Frazier of the "Thrilla in Manila" would have defeated Norton, I think.

raylawpc wrote:Not with Joe Frazier in the picture.

Not to mention Lyle and Shavers.

Ezzard wrote:Half the problem is that Ken conversations always end up in arguments about the scoring of his 2nd and 3rd fights with Ali. And/or people dismissing him as a guy who couldn’t cope with punchers…

Despite losing to Foreman he was far better against common opponents Ali and Young…styles really making fights in these cases…

Foreman’s best wins were Frazier, Norton, Chuvalo and Moorer

Norton’s were Ali, Young, Quarry…but the other 2 Ali fights were very close and could have easily gone his way…yes Ali fans would have argued over them just as Ken’s fans argue over them now…and both sides would have solid points…so please let’s just leave it at that…

Ken did better against Young than Foreman or Ali did.

In ATG lists Foreman gets thrown in at #4 (too high for me) and Norton often doesn’t make people’s all-time top 20…

Norton did do a little better against common opponents.
They both had major wins; though I would give Foreman a slight edge here since he won so easily against Frazier and Norton himself. Foreman also had more of them; Norton had Ali and then Quarry. Foreman had Frazier, Norton, and Lyle.
Foreman only had two relevant losses (Ali and Young) while Norton only had Ali and Holmes if you don't count Garcia and Shavers too much against him.
If they had never fought, Foreman would have a slight edge.
I think Foreman's win over Norton in the head to head was so dominating that you have to rate him higher.
Foreman should be rated somewhere from #3 to about #12. There are many guys who are relatively close.
Norton belongs in the next group with guys like Patterson, Walcott, Charles, Baer, Sharkey, Schmeling etc.

Norton hated body shots.
Always had a tendancy to grimace and subtlely tug his trunks up when hit with a good blow below.
Hard body punchers like Bonavena and early to mid 70s Quarry would have had a great shot at stopping Norton.
Until Frazier's smoke went out after the Manila fight, he would have owned Norton with that inside attack.

SenorPipino wrote:Norton hated body shots.
Always had a tendancy to grimace and subtlely tug his trunks up when hit with a good blow below.
Hard body punchers like Bonavena and early to mid 70s Quarry would have had a great shot at stopping Norton.
Until Frazier's smoke went out after the Manila fight, he would have owned Norton with that inside attack.

Agreed about Ringo. He would have been a tough one for Norton as well.

Il Duce wrote:
Ray,

Kenny Norton was starting to have his way with Joe Frazier as early as November 1972.......

In November 1972 sparring sessions, {205 lb.} Kenny was backing up 'Smokin Joe' for the 1st-Time.

Prove it.

You were on the "inside" somehow?

You actually had a schedule where you rubbed shoulders with these guys on a routine basis?

Can you tell us more?

Ambling Alp II wrote:If they had never fought, Foreman would have a slight edge.
I think Foreman's win over Norton in the head to head was so dominating that you have to rate him higher.
Foreman should be rated somewhere from #3 to about #12. There are many guys who are relatively close.
Norton belongs in the next group with guys like Patterson, Walcott, Charles, Baer, Sharkey, Schmeling etc.

good post.

Norton is in my top 20, I have Foreman #5. He destroyed him when they were both at their best. I rate Kenny for his work against Ali and I thought the third fight was a robbery so I consider that a win in my analysis. However, I wouldn't say he did better against Young. I thought Jimmy beat all three of them.

Norton definitely makes my top #20. A much better chin than given credit for, great athleticism, boxing ability, stamina, under-rated handspeed, and notably a tremendous heart and competitive spirit. People remember his incredible effort vs Holmes, but as impressive to me were his wars, well past his prime, vs LeDoux and Cobb (I thought he deserved the decisions vs both, and that a draw was more than fair for LeDoux despite his final big round with the KDs). I also thought he beat Young by a point in a close and under-rated fight.

Norton was a fantastic fighter.I actually think peak for peak Kenny may have had holmes number too.

In regards to the sparring sessions and yes knowing joe Frazier was a Philly guy,I still can't see Norton beating Frazier. Frazier had a will of iron and over fifteen I can't see him being denied.in fact I think Joe of 70-71 beats any version of Ken every time

Ali deserves some respect assuming the series should have been 2-1 to Ken,I still see a ( as Apollo creed may have have put it) 4th gala evening taking place and Muhammad finally winning clearly by tko a fourth.

Norton would have handled wladimir klitchko.people forget this guy struggled against the last generation of remotely talented and smaller American heavies .the joke being these guys were the dregs compared to what came only ten years before in the mid 90s.devaryl Williamson,Lamont Brewster and a 212 pound David haye all had their moments and senator Ken Norton was no lamon brewster.Norton would have kayoed wlad

mugabi wrote:Norton was a fantastic fighter.I actually think peak for peak Kenny may have had holmes number too.

In regards to the sparring sessions and yes knowing joe Frazier was a Philly guy,I still can't see Norton beating Frazier. Frazier had a will of iron and over fifteen I can't see him being denied.in fact I think Joe of 70-71 beats any version of Ken every time

Ali deserves some respect assuming the series should have been 2-1 to Ken,I still see a ( as Apollo creed may have have put it) 4th gala evening taking place and Muhammad finally winning clearly by tko a fourth.

Norton would have handled wladimir klitchko.people forget this guy struggled against the last generation of remotely talented and smaller American heavies .the joke being these guys were the dregs compared to what came only ten years before in the mid 90s.devaryl Williamson,Lamont Brewster and a 212 pound David haye all had their moments and senator Ken Norton was no lamon brewster.Norton would have kayoed wlad

I thought Kenny had Holmes number in 1978 . . .

Il Duce wrote:December 1972

We all saw it at Joe's Training Camp Headquarters at The Playboy Club in McAfee, New Jersey.

Joe was working out at The Playboy Club in late-December 1972, and preparing for his bout with George Foreman.

Nobody knew who this muscular-guy was. Kind of thin, but taller than Joe Frazier by a few inches.

We thought he was some kind of Body Builder with his 'V-Shaped' physique. They called him 'The Fighting Marine'.

First it was November 1972, now it's late December 1972. And everybody in boxing knew who Kenny Norton was in late 1972. He was the 9th ranked heavyweight contender in The Ring's 1972 rankings, and had recorded impressive wins against Jack O'Halloran, James J. Woody, and Henry Clark. Only casual fans perhaps had never heard of Ken Norton by late 1972. Are you suggesting you were just a casual fan in 1972, Il Duce?

Il Duce wrote:The first time 'I' saw Kenny Norton in the Ring with Joe Frazier was in December 1972, at
The Playboy Club in McAfee, New Jersey.

Kenny wasn't real well known back then, despite his impressive record.

He was a West Coast guy.

So much for seeing Kenny back Frazier up in November 1972 . . .

Il Duce wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

Il Duce wrote:The first time 'I' saw Kenny Norton in the Ring with Joe Frazier was in December 1972, at
The Playboy Club in McAfee, New Jersey.

Kenny wasn't real well known back then, despite his impressive record.

He was a West Coast guy.

So much for seeing Kenny back Frazier up in November 1972 . . .

Kenny Norton said that in January 1973, after the Joe Frazier - George Foreman bout.

It was printed in the AP Report.

Kenny said he had started to back Joe Frazier up for the 'first time' in November 1972.

Yeah. Right. You said you lived it in November 1972, not that you read it in an AP report . . .

It's doubtful it ever happened anyway. I checked Norton's record and he had fights in late November and mid-December 1972 in Nevada and California.

mugabi wrote:Norton would have kayoed wlad

could easily be like that. lyle too.

i always try not to be too nostalgic,
since each generation kind of sees the
glory in the past and only the BS in the
present. but whenever i come across a
piece of footage of the early seventies,
i can't help thinking: "when was the last
time heavies fought like that?" and the
answer is always evander-related.

Norton don't KO Wlad)).Wlad could be KO Norton

Norton outboxed Wlad for me