BoxRec

Willie Peps 4 fights against Sandy Saddler. Willie lost the 1st fight. Won the 2nd fight. Willie lost the 3rd and 4th fights against Sandy.


How did Willie Pep error in his 1st, 3rd and 4th fights against Saddler?


Do you think that Pep could have fought substantially different in his 1st, 3rd and 4th fights against Sandy?

If so, how could Willie have beaten Saddler?


Or, was Sandy Saddlers boxing style just that superior over Willies boxing style?

Saddler was enormous for the weight class, being 5'8" or 5'10" and was just so powerful a hitter; he was also one of the dirtiest.

The great Willie Pep beat the great Sandy Saddler in fight #2 in spectacular fashion. By boxing and being on his toes. He gave Saddler a boxing lesson. They were 2 evenly match fighters, with more than 100 fights under their belts. Some people say that the Wil' of the Wisp was not the same fighter after a plane crash accident that he survived. Forget fights #3 and #4. Were they really fights or wrestling matches?

saddler never gets the credit he deserves - pep always does

HomicideHenry wrote:Saddler was enormous for the weight class, being 5'8" or 5'10" and was just so powerful a hitter; he was also one of the dirtiest.

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Sandy Saddlers height is listed as being 5 foot 8 1/2 inches tall.

Yes, Sandy sure did carry punching power in the featherweight division.

misterpunch wrote:saddler never gets the credit he deserves - pep always does

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This is true.


Why do you think that this is the case?


Do you think it is because Willie Pep had a longer professional boxing career? Or, do you think that it is because of 2 boxers who beat Sandy Saddler?


Willie fought Jock Leslie. Willie beat Jock. Jock fought Sandy. Jock Leslie beat Sandy Saddler by a 3rd round technical knockout.


Willie fought Phil Terranova. Willie beat Phil. Phil fought Sandy. Phil Terranova beat Sandy Saddler.



Do you think that Sandy Saddlers losses to Jock Leslie and Phil Terranova have played a large factor into why Willie Pep gets more credit? Compared to Sandy Saddler?

no, I think its simply that pep is portrayed as a very genial guy and sandy is viewed as a bit of a scally. for what its worth I rank saddler higher than pep as a "great" fighter

misterpunch wrote:no, I think its simply that pep is portrayed as a very genial guy and sandy is viewed as a bit of a scally. for what its worth I rank saddler higher than pep as a "great" fighter

No way. It is what it is. The great Willie Pep by far was greater than the great Sandy Saddler. Fights #3 and #4 does not count in their rivalry.

NYDominican wrote:

misterpunch wrote:saddler never gets the credit he deserves - pep always does

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This is true.


Why do you think that this is the case?


Do you think it is because Willie Pep had a longer professional boxing career? Or, do you think that it is because of 2 boxers who beat Sandy Saddler?


Willie fought Jock Leslie. Willie beat Jock. Jock fought Sandy. Jock Leslie beat Sandy Saddler by a 3rd round technical knockout.


Willie fought Phil Terranova. Willie beat Phil. Phil fought Sandy. Phil Terranova beat Sandy Saddler.



Do you think that Sandy Saddlers losses to Jock Leslie and Phil Terranova have played a large factor into why Willie Pep gets more credit? Compared to Sandy Saddler?

Saddler did have the occasional upset loss and Pep was very consistent. So those losses hurt Saddler a lot when rating Saddler and when comparing them head to head.
As mentioned, Saddler won the head to head, so it should be very close when rating them. Pep is more popular and that is probably the biggest reason that the gap is larger than you might expect when you see how some people rate them. (there are excuses for Peps losses and there isn't for Saddler's losses)

Ambling Alp II wrote:

NYDominican wrote:

misterpunch wrote:saddler never gets the credit he deserves - pep always does

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


This is true.


Why do you think that this is the case?


Do you think it is because Willie Pep had a longer professional boxing career? Or, do you think that it is because of 2 boxers who beat Sandy Saddler?


Willie fought Jock Leslie. Willie beat Jock. Jock fought Sandy. Jock Leslie beat Sandy Saddler by a 3rd round technical knockout.


Willie fought Phil Terranova. Willie beat Phil. Phil fought Sandy. Phil Terranova beat Sandy Saddler.



Do you think that Sandy Saddlers losses to Jock Leslie and Phil Terranova have played a large factor into why Willie Pep gets more credit? Compared to Sandy Saddler?

Saddler did have the occasional upset loss and Pep was very consistent. So those losses hurt Saddler a lot when rating Saddler and when comparing them head to head.
As mentioned, Saddler won the head to head, so it should be very close when rating them. Pep is more popular and that is probably the biggest reason that the gap is larger than you might expect when you see how some people rate them. (there are excuses for Peps losses and there isn't for Saddler's losses)

I do not think that Pep was greater than the great Sandy Saddler because he was more popular. Record by record, opponent by opponent, Pep got him beat.

I came across this old thread, so I will give my opinion, for what it's worth. Probably not much.

I don't see how Willie Pep could possibly have been as good after his plane crash in which he broke a leg and his back in two places and was in a body cast for 5 months (3 people died in the crash). Willie said that his chin wasn't as good after the crash as evidenced by the fact that he was never knocked out before the plane crash in 110 fights. Six times after Pep was KO'd.

I think that Willie also lost some punching power because of the accident. Pep stopped 9 out of his last 10 opponents before the plane crash.

Therefore, Pep must have been past his best when his 4 fight series with Saddler started.

Some thought that Willie should have won his 3rd fight with Sandy Saddler by disqualification because Saddler apparently caused Pep's dislocated shoulder by wrestling and twisting Willie's arm and shoulder. One with that opinion was none other than former heavyweight champion Gene Tunney. Pep was ahead on points when the fight ended.

If Saddler did lose by DQ, that would have made it 2 wins each in the series.

Having said that, I must admit that Sandy Saddler was a great, great fighter and a murderous puncher in the featherweight division. I used to consider Sandy Saddler to be the greatest ever in the featherweight division, but I did not know about Pep's plane crash then.

Two true all-time greats: Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler.

Most amazing thing about Sandy Saddler was that in his entire career he was only DQ'd one time. He said near the end of his career that he even get's booed in his home town of Boston.

Scypion wrote:I came across this old thread, so I will give my opinion, for what it's worth. Probably not much.

I don't see how Willie Pep could possibly have been as good after his plane crash in which he broke a leg and his back in two places and was in a body cast for 5 months (3 people died in the crash). Willie said that his chin wasn't as good after the crash as evidenced by the fact that he was never knocked out before the plane crash in 110 fights. Six times after Pep was KO'd.

I think that Willie also lost some punching power because of the accident. Pep stopped 9 out of his last 10 opponents before the plane crash.

Therefore, Pep must have been past his best when his 4 fight series with Saddler started.

Some thought that Willie should have won his 3rd fight with Sandy Saddler by disqualification because Saddler apparently caused Pep's dislocated shoulder by wrestling and twisting Willie's arm and shoulder. One with that opinion was none other than former heavyweight champion Gene Tunney. Pep was ahead on points when the fight ended.

If Saddler did lose by DQ, that would have made it 2 wins each in the series.

Having said that, I must admit that Sandy Saddler was a great, great fighter and a murderous puncher in the featherweight division. I used to consider Sandy Saddler to be the greatest ever in the featherweight division, but I did not know about Pep's plane crash then.

Two true all-time greats: Willie Pep and Sandy Saddler.

About Pep's punching power: Willie wasn't known as a power puncher as a result of his low number of KO's. However, Willie Pep probably could have had more.

When Willie got way ahead on points, which was often, he was content to just finish out the fight without going for the KO. In one fight I saw where he had his foe in trouble, Pep looked at the ref, but the referee would not stop the fight. So, Willie just finished out the fight without really trying for the KO.

If you punch a lot of people out you can usually absorb punches extremely well... If you can't take a punch, you can't hang in there and trade...too big a risk.

Pep remarked that he was starting to get his puncher's legs just before the plane crash... He was starting to knock guys out who he wasn't expected to knock out. It took him over 100 fights to get there... But after the plane crash his chin was gone... He had to go back to moving, jabbing, and piling up points.

elmersalsa wrote:Record by record, opponent by opponent, Pep got him beat.

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Sandy Saddler knocked out Wille Pep in three fights out of four.

elmersalsa wrote: Record by record, opponent by opponent, Pep got him beat.

Sandy Saddler knocked out Wille Pep in three fights out of four.

Kalan wrote:If you punch a lot of people out you can usually absorb punches extremely well... If you can't take a punch, you can't hang in there and trade...too big a risk.

Pep remarked that he was starting to get his puncher's legs just before the plane crash... He was starting to knock guys out who he wasn't expected to knock out. It took him over 100 fights to get there... But after the plane crash his chin was gone... He had to go back to moving, jabbing, and piling up points.

All true what is said here. Pep had 110 bouts before the plane crash, and was never stopped.

Still, Willie had 132 fights after the plane crash and was KO'd 6 times, which really isn't too bad. Three of the KO's were by Saddler. One bout was stopped due to a dislocated shoulder evidently caused by having his shoulder twisted in a clinch. The last fight with Saddler was stopped due to cuts.

Pep was 36 when he was last stopped.

So, Willie won 122 fights after the plane crash, losing 10. That is still a pretty good record.

Willie Pep lost a lot due to the crash, but was still pretty good.