BoxRec

Thinking, why not have the forum break it all down in a tournament... the best white heavyweights, from John L. Sullivan to the present time.... Matches to be arranged week to week.... and the forum posters determine the winner via votes.... since there have been literally hundreds of 'white hopes' through that time, to make it easier we will simply take the top five or ten best white heavyweights per era (every ten years).... and in a random order (present era/1880's, 1940's/1980's, etc) we will match them off and determine the winners....

1880-1900

Champions of The Era (20 Year Period)

John Lawrence Sullivan, James J. Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, James J. Jeffries

-Jake Kilrain
-Peter Maher
-Tom Sharkey
-Joe Choynski
-Frank Slavin
-Joe Goddard

1905-1915:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Hart, Burns, Johnson (excluded of course)

-Luther McCarty
-Billy Wells
-Al Pazer
-Al Kaufman
-Fireman Jim Flynn
-Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
-Jack Root
-Frank Moran
-Jim Coffey
-Kid McCoy
-Gus Ruhlin

1916-1925:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney

-Gunboat Smith
-Fred Fulton
-Willie Meehan
-Carl Morris
-Bill Brennan
-Billy Miske
-Tommy Gibbons
-Georges Carpentier


1929-1939:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Braddock

-Art Laskey
-Tommy Loughran
-Ernie Schaaf
-Maxie Rosenbloom
-Ben Foord
-Walter Neusel
-Ray Impeltierre
-Johnny Risko
-Jimmy Maloney
-Tom Heeney



1940-1950:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Joe Louis (excluded), Ezzard Charles (excluded)

-Lee Savold
-Pat Valentino
-Most of Joe Louis's title defenses (especially Billy Conn)
-Bruce Woodcock
-Joe Baksi
-Buddy Knox
-Kingfish Levinsky

1951-1961:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Jersey Joe Walcott (excluded), Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson (excluded), Ingemar Johansson, Sonny Liston (excluded)

-Roland LaStarza
-Don Cockell
-Brian London
-Henry Cooper
-Willie Pastrano
-Rex Layne
-Harry 'Kid' Matthews
-Pat McMurty
-Tom McNeeley
-Mike DeJohn
-Carmine Vingo
-Charley Norkus

1962-1972:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- All excluded: Ali, Frazier, Foreman

-George Chuvalo
-Chuck Wepner
-Jerry Quarry
-Joe Bugner
-Ron Stander
-Karl Mildenberger
-Jack Boddell
-Boone Kirkman
-LaMar Clark
-Bob Cleroux

1973-1983:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Ali, Spinks, Norton, Holmes, Tate, Weaver; Coetzee

-Duane Bobick
-Gerry Cooney
-Richard Dunne
-John L. Gardner
-Randall Cobb
-Scott Frank
-Scott LeDoux
-Alfio Righetti
-Johnny DuPlooy
-Kallie Knoetze

1984-1994:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Tyson, Dokes, Witherspoon, Spinks, Tucker, Holyfield, Douglas

-Tommy Morrison
-Francesco Damiani
-Pierre Coetzer
-Peter McNeeley

1995-2005:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Bowe, Moorer, Foreman, Lewis, Bruno, Tyson, McCall, Rahman, Briggs; Axel Shulz & Vitali Klitschko

-Corrie Sanders
-Oleg Maskaev
-Sergei Liakovich
-Vladimir Klitschko
-Zeljko 'Zev' Mavrovic
-Andrew Golota
-Frans Botha
-Lou Savarese
-Crawford Grimsley

2006-Present:

Champions of The Era (8 Year Period)- Nicolai Valuev & Vladimir Klitschko; excluded David Haye

-Ruslan Chagaev
-Tyson Fury
-David Price
-Lucas Browne
-Mariusz Wach
-Alexander Povetkin
-Robert Helenius
-Tomasz Adamek
-Sultan Ibragimov
-Kevin McBride
-Albert Sosnowski



Essentially, that's the listings for this tournament.... any more suggestions to add to the list feel free to do so....


Note: Those listed in blue have been eliminated from the tournament

HomicideHenry wrote:1973-1983:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Ali, Spinks, Norton, Holmes, Tate, Weaver; Coetzee

Gerrie Coetzee is white.

J-C wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:1973-1983:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Ali, Spinks, Norton, Holmes, Tate, Weaver; Coetzee

Gerrie Coetzee is white.

That's why he's after a semicolon.

If there is even Mariusz Wach I would add Andrew Golota to 1995-2005. Great fights with Bowe and Grant and 4 fights for heavyweight title from 1997 to 2005. I know he lost them all but both fights with Bowe and one fight with Grant were lost because of his stupidity. Fights with Ruiz and Byrd were competitive (some people claim that he won them). And show me another boxer who had 4 chances for a title. I mean not boxers who were champions and were one of the best in the world - I mean boxers who were quite good like Golota. Not everybody can fight for a title. He didn't avoid difficult opponents and he had a good technique. I think he deserved at least for being mentioned as one of the options.

Duch wrote:

J-C wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:1973-1983:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Ali, Spinks, Norton, Holmes, Tate, Weaver; Coetzee

Gerrie Coetzee is white.

That's why he's after a semicolon.

If there is even Mariusz Wach I would add Andrew Golota to 1995-2005. Great fights with Bowe and Grant and 4 fights for heavyweight title from 1997 to 2005. I know he lost them all but both fights with Bowe and one fight with Grant were lost because of his stupidity. Fights with Ruiz and Byrd were competitive (some people claim that he won them). And show me another boxer who had 4 chances for a title. I mean not boxers who were champions and were one of the best in the world - I mean boxers who were quite good like Golota. Not everybody can fight for a title. He didn't avoid difficult opponents and he had a good technique. I think he deserved at least for being mentioned as one of the options.

Added

Jimmy Adamick, Maxie Rosenbloom, Joe Baksi & Joey Maxim.

How about Bob Pastor. He was Joe Louis' policeman. He burst the bubble of most of the black heavyweights who were streaking and considered prospective challengers that Mike Jacobs wanted to eliminate. Some of the black threats that Pastor removed included : Roscoe Toles, Canadian Tiger Warrington, Turkey Thompson (2), Booker Beckwith, Lem Franklin, Jimmy Bivins. Pastor gave Louis a frustrating evening in their first match and gave Joe a very tough battle, the second time around, after surviving a savage 1st round beating - finally succumbing in the 11th.

Duch wrote:

J-C wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:1973-1983:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Ali, Spinks, Norton, Holmes, Tate, Weaver; Coetzee

Gerrie Coetzee is white.

That's why he's after a semicolon.

What?

Duch wrote:What?

Was just saying I was dumb to misread the original post.

J-C wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:1973-1983:

Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Excluded: Ali, Spinks, Norton, Holmes, Tate, Weaver; Coetzee

Gerrie Coetzee is white.

Ponker picked the wrong South African in Pierre. What about about Johnny DuPlooy, who had real wrecking power!

Will add....

Johnny DuPlooy
Bob Pastor--- course then again I also said "most" of Joe Louis' title defenses being they were white
Joey Maxim
Tomasz Adamek
Jimmy Adamick
Maxie Rosenbloom
Joe Baksi

Mildenberger and Bonavena seem to be missing....both world-class and dangerous in their own ways.

Bonavena was one scary lunatic (who I think was murdered in a knocking shop?) and he actually beat Chuvalo and Mildenberger as well as guys like Martin and Folley. Had two proper, hardcore wars with Frazier as well and I suspect he was probably the white dude the elite and totally dominant American black heavyweights of that era probably feared and respected the most. Exceptionally strong, aggressive and with good power...but also basic and a wild man outside the ring.

I've included the southpaw Mildenberger - despite loses to Cooper, Bonavena and Richardson - because he was excellent against the 'main man' Ali and could have been a whole lot better with a sharper dig.

The guy who gave Lewis a proper fight and then seemed to disappear was the Croatian Zeljko Mavrovic. Lewis is on record as saying he did not like that fight one bit and little Frank Maloney said it was far harder than the scorecards suggested. Seem to recall that he sported a frightening Mohawk hairdo as well!

Bodyshot3 wrote:Mildenberger and Bonavena seem to be missing....both world-class and dangerous in their own ways.

Bonavena was one scary lunatic (who I think was murdered in a knocking shop?) and he actually beat Chuvalo and Mildenberger as well as guys like Martin and Folley. Had two proper, hardcore wars with Frazier as well and I suspect he was probably the white dude the elite and totally dominant American black heavyweights of that era probably feared and respected the most. Exceptionally strong, aggressive and with good power...but also basic and a wild man outside the ring.

I've included the southpaw Mildenberger - despite loses to Cooper, Bonavena and Richardson - because he was excellent against the 'main man' Ali and could have been a whole lot better with a sharper dig.

The guy who gave Lewis a proper fight and then seemed to disappear was the Croatian Zeljko Mavrovic. Lewis is on record as saying he did not like that fight one bit and little Frank Maloney said it was far harder than the scorecards suggested. Seem to recall that he sported a frightening Mohawk hairdo as well!

'Ringo' was a great heavyweight, but unfortunately, he is of latin descent--- else I would of added him to the list. Being Argentinian and all, I cant add Roscoe Toles or Luis Firpo to the list either; let alone John Ruiz and guys like Tommy Gomez--- just cus you are of a light skin color, doesnt necessarily mean you are caucasion--- else I would of also added Paolo Uzcudon (or however his name is spelled) who fought virtually every worthwhile LHW and HW of his time.

Karl Mildenberger I will add to the list though. And thanks for the name of the 'Zev' (lol) he was such a great heavyweight, too, its shame he had about the hardest name to pronounce or remember. Then again, had he been around today with all the Klitschko's, Ibragimov's, Chagaev's, Povetkin's, etc. he probably would of fit in like a glove.

Henry....I got some news for you....

Hispanic, it's not a race. If your grandparents were from Sweden to Mexico and you're crazy blonde you're still considered Hispanic because Hispanic just means "from a Spanish-Speaking country" Many Spaniards are blonde hair, blue eyed. Caucasian is a race, of which, many are hispanic.

Not sure what your attempting to sort out here. Unless you are simply wanting to sort out those who speak the language or hale from certain countries.

If you need...here is some U.S. "legalese". (also not a race). This is taken from a U.S. Census info document.

"Hispanic or Latino origin is independent of race and is termed "ethnicity" by the United States Census Bureau. The racial categories are: American Indian and Alaska Native, White, Black or African American, Asian, Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander, Some other race, and Two or more races."

When I think "white", I think of someone who speaks English as their first language or speaks an Eastern/Western European language, and is of an Eastern/Western European ancestry (for the most part) and of course is light skinned. I think most latinos would consider themselves 'non-white' and if I am not mistaken I think almost every newspaper report or interview with any latin-American or Spanish heavyweight like Toles, Bonavena, Ruiz, Arreola, Firpo, Gomez, etc. doesnt not reflect that they are white.

I know alot of people are real knit picky in terms of political correctness about certain things, but by and large the only man on my list (that I know of) who wasn't a complete white man was Luther McCarty because his father Anton McCarty was a full blooded native american and his mother was full blooded Irish. Unless--- Coetzee, and other South Africans on the list (Ben Foord, DuPlooy) were mixed of true African blood somewhere along the lines, etc.

I hate to say it, but most people see 'white' as in terms of appearance or in ancestry or in name. If you're light skinned, and have an Irish last name--- then you're white. If you're light skinned, and have an African last name--- you're still white. I think Gerrie Coetzee said it best, when he was attempting to fight Larry Holmes. A reporter asked him, "What will it feel like fighting an African American?" and Coetzee said (and truthfully) "I am going to be the only African in that ring."

Unless a majority vote over-rides my opinion on the whole 'What is white?' debate, for the time being Oscar Bonavena and others are off the list.

How does Evangelista get in but not Bonavena?

Henry...it then stands to reason that under your definition...a Spaniard would be "non-hispanic".

Just sayin'......

1) Evangelista is from Uruguay. If you're going to include him you need to add Bonavena.

2) Be specific as to the heavies from the Joe Louis era.

3) Add in Rex Layne, Boone Kirkman, Walter Neusel, Harry 'Kid' Matthews and Pat McMurty.

4) Good concept!

scartissue wrote:1) Evangelista is from Uruguay. If you're going to include him you need to add Bonavena.

2) Be specific as to the heavies from the Joe Louis era.

3) Add in Rex Layne, Boone Kirkman, Walter Neusel, Harry 'Kid' Matthews and Pat McMurty.

4) Good concept!

I always assumed Evangelista was Italian.... guess hes off the list then...

I hate to say it, but most people see 'white' as in terms of appearance or in ancestry or in name. If you're light skinned, and have an Irish last name--- then you're white. If you're light skinned, and have an African last name--- you're still white. I think Gerrie Coetzee said it best, when he was attempting to fight Larry Holmes. A reporter asked him, "What will it feel like fighting an African American?" and Coetzee said (and truthfully) "I am going to be the only African in that ring."

Unless a majority vote over-rides my opinion on the whole 'What is white?' debate, for the time being Oscar Bonavena and others are off the list.

What is wrong in that if you're light skinned, you're white? That's the true. White is a colour (of skin). If you're light skinned, YOU ARE WHITE. Maybe you're not Caucasian, but you're white. Maybe you're not full blood Irish but you're white.

If you understand "white" as "Caucasian" you should just change the topic for "The Best Caucasian Heavyweight of All Time".

Why should things be defined by Colour? I mean what is the point? What am I ?? White , Beige, Brown, Tanned, Black...who Knows???!!!

evren

Jim Coffey belongs in the 1905-15 or 1916-26 eras.

dempsey
marciano
jeffries
baer
vitali k.
tunney
gerry cooney
vlad k.

i think the answer will be which klit bros you prefer

donnellon wrote:Jim Coffey belongs in the 1905-15 or 1916-26 eras.

Thanks for pointing this out. Will be corrected.

evrenb wrote:Why should things be defined by Colour? I mean what is the point? What am I ?? White , Beige, Brown, Tanned, Black...who Knows???!!!

evren

Because there seems to be a thought process in boxing that the great white fighters ducked and dodged the great black fighters--- there is even a growing minority that believes black heavyweights are just simply superior to white heavyweights, based off color alone--- people point out all the time that the 'top ten' consists mainly of black heavyweights, therefore adding to the perception that white heavyweights simply is something of a bygone era and therefore inferior to the all around big picture.

I figure, why not determine the best white heavyweight of all time--- and then determine whether that man can defeat a majority of black heavyweights on the top ten, twenty, etc list. Whether we like it or not, virtually all sports fall into this same argument--- that somehow magically basketball, football, baseball, etc. got better the moment blacks were introduced and over time showed such dominance that white players just are not at all noticeable anymore--- that when people bring up great athletes like Larry Byrd, Johnny Unitas, Babe Ruth, etc. that these people just dont match up in the stats, yet virtually all historians will argue that Larry Byrd was possibly the best all around basketball player who ever played in the NBA, etc. or argue that Babe Ruth did more home runs in a shorter amount of time than say Sammy Sosa or Hank Aaron, etc.

People have a tendency to under value athletes of the past due to their skin color---- especiall in boxing; I dont know how many times I've seen people criticize and absolutely destroy John L. Sullivan's credability and dominance as champion (for 12 years) all because he didnt fight one guy who happened to be black. I dont know how many times I've seen people completely disregard Jack Dempsey as being a true ATG because he didn't fight Sam Langford or Harry Wills. I dont know how many times I've seen people laugh and point out that Marciano only fought 'old' black guys, and therefore wasn't a true all-time great, etc. It's always something--- and it always comes back to the fact one guy is white. Any time a white guy, especially a heavyweight, comes around he is automatically labelled "The Great White Hope" and is the subject of more criticism than any other heavyweight of color. Look at someone like Tommy Morrison, and virtually everyone points out his failures rather than his successes--- weak jawed, pushed too soon, etc. or someone like Gerry Cooney--- hype job, fought old guys, etc. rather than look at what potential and ability they actually had.

IMHO, what black guys used to be in the turn of the 20th century all the way up to Joe Louis, is what white guys in the heavyweight division are today in the mindsets of millions around the world--- don't think so? Look at the Klitschko brothers--- don't go into a rant and rave that they couldn't beat Ali, Holmes, Frazier, etc. (cus who the hell really could?), have you ever seen two dominating heavyweights like those two in your life time? Vladimir is nearing Larry Holmes 20 title defense record, and you can argue that Klitschko (for the most part) has fought the better quality opposition in those title defenses. Vitali, considered the better of the two brothers, was virtually unbeatable (save for Lennox Lewis in a highly competitive fight stopped on cuts with both men ready to go). Yet, every critic I hear go on how they are 'hype' and are just big, strong, white guys in a shitty era in boxing--- total disrespect and attempts to ruin credability of two highly respectable men who devoted their lives to boxing. Why?... cus they're white. Cus they're not American and white. Cus they're not American, and they have a boring style, and are white.

Agree to disagree with me all you want, but deep down you know what I'm saying is true.