BoxRec

Anyone know much about 1930/40s heavyweight banger Lem Franklin?

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

Just been flicking through his record and he had some good wins but seemed to fall apart after Bob Paster knocked him out and ended up on a losing streak, going 2-8 in his last 10 fights. He tragically died just aged 26 after his last fight ended in a head injury that that his opponent Larry Lane was charged with manslaughter for.

Franklin knocked out Lee Savold in the 2nd in only his 13th fight and later stopped Bivins in the 9th (Bivins had only lost one fight at that point). He knocked out former title challenger Tony Musto in the 2nd, something Louis, Turkey Thompson or Sheppard couldn't manage.

Also knocked out the big punching Curtis Sheppard in the 5th and knocked out former world title challenger Abe Simon in the 5th round. Abe Simon fought Louis in a title rematch in his very next fight.

It appears Franklin had some hand problems and although I think he got upto number 2 in the rankings never got a title shot and some people say was avoided by Louis.

More info much appreciated.

Franklin was widely feared as a devastating puncher with speed and explosiveness. Coming out of the AMs many thought he had the potential to beat Louis. He did have hand issues throughout his career although I'm not sure how much they factored into his later losses; his greatest weakness was his vulnerable chin. But Franklin is just one of the reasons the pre WW II 30s/40s era of heavyweights is so under-rated; often overlooked is the black HW scene which featured lots of talented fighters like Franklin, Lee Q Murray, Harry Bobo, Curtis Sheppard, Eddie Blunt, Obie Walker, Leroy Haynes, Elmer Ray etc.

Its always kind of bothered me how Franklin beat Simon TWICE, and never got a single title shot, where as Simon got two of them. Franklin was definitely a solid contender back in 42', until Pastor beat him.

There were many fighters of this era (black and white) that were roughly even. There were many fights between them and really no one was able to seperate himself from the pack. There many fights between these black fighters and the white fighters who got title shots and the results were mixed.
Most of these guys (black and white) had a bit of talent but not much, while others were simply inconsistent. This was not a golden era by any means for heavyweights, but in some ways it was interesting.
Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins were probably the best of the lot; but even they were not head and shoulders above everybody else.

Franklin for a short while may have been as deserving as anyone for a title shot. However, usually it was one of the white fighters who got the title shot.

It would have been nice if a couple of black heavyweights would have got titles shots, but Louis would probably have beaten them fairly easily.

Ambling Alp II wrote:There were many fighters of this era (black and white) that were roughly even. There were many fights between them and really no one was able to seperate himself from the pack. There many fights between these black fighters and the white fighters who got title shots and the results were mixed.
Most of these guys (black and white) had a bit of talent but not much, while others were simply inconsistent. This was not a golden era by any means for heavyweights, but in some ways it was interesting.
Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins were probably the best of the lot; but even they were not head and shoulders above everybody else.

Franklin for a short while may have been as deserving as anyone for a title shot. However, usually it was one of the white fighters who got the title shot.

It would have been nice if a couple of black heavyweights would have got titles shots, but Louis would probably have beaten them fairly easily.

I don't dispute that Joe Louis would have beaten every available heavyweight who fought during that period. But I think he is too often credited with beating " every worthy challenger" who was around. Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivens, Turkey Thompson and Lem Franklin were head over heels better than some of the guys he fought, regardless of weather or not they would dropped face first in the ring with him.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:There were many fighters of this era (black and white) that were roughly even. There were many fights between them and really no one was able to seperate himself from the pack. There many fights between these black fighters and the white fighters who got title shots and the results were mixed.
Most of these guys (black and white) had a bit of talent but not much, while others were simply inconsistent. This was not a golden era by any means for heavyweights, but in some ways it was interesting.
Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins were probably the best of the lot; but even they were not head and shoulders above everybody else.

Franklin for a short while may have been as deserving as anyone for a title shot. However, usually it was one of the white fighters who got the title shot.

It would have been nice if a couple of black heavyweights would have got titles shots, but Louis would probably have beaten them fairly easily.

I don't dispute that Joe Louis would have beaten every available heavyweight who fought during that period. But I think he is too often credited with beating " every worthy challenger" who was around. Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivens, Turkey Thompson and Lem Franklin were head over heels better than some of the guys he fought, regardless of weather or not they would dropped face first in the ring with him.

Agreed.Joe should've fought these guys.

Nile4000 wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:There were many fighters of this era (black and white) that were roughly even. There were many fights between them and really no one was able to seperate himself from the pack. There many fights between these black fighters and the white fighters who got title shots and the results were mixed.
Most of these guys (black and white) had a bit of talent but not much, while others were simply inconsistent. This was not a golden era by any means for heavyweights, but in some ways it was interesting.
Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivins were probably the best of the lot; but even they were not head and shoulders above everybody else.

Franklin for a short while may have been as deserving as anyone for a title shot. However, usually it was one of the white fighters who got the title shot.

It would have been nice if a couple of black heavyweights would have got titles shots, but Louis would probably have beaten them fairly easily.

I don't dispute that Joe Louis would have beaten every available heavyweight who fought during that period. But I think he is too often credited with beating " every worthy challenger" who was around. Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivens, Turkey Thompson and Lem Franklin were head over heels better than some of the guys he fought, regardless of weather or not they would dropped face first in the ring with him.

Agreed.Joe should've fought these guys.

Practical question: Who would have promoted these fights and met the guarantees Joe was demanding to defend his title? Remember, in the early 1940s the prevailing thought was that a fight between two black fighters - even for the heavyweight title and even if one of them was Joe Louis - wouldn't draw flies . . .

raylawpc wrote: Practical question: Who would have promoted these fights and met the guarantees Joe was demanding to defend his title? Remember, in the early 1940s the prevailing thought was that a fight between two black fighters - even for the heavyweight title and even if one of them was Joe Louis - wouldn't draw flies . . .

Irrelevant.. This not a discussion about business decisions.. Its about fighting the best men available which is what legacies are made of.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Practical question: Who would have promoted these fights and met the guarantees Joe was demanding to defend his title? Remember, in the early 1940s the prevailing thought was that a fight between two black fighters - even for the heavyweight title and even if one of them was Joe Louis - wouldn't draw flies . . .

Irrelevant.. This not a discussion about business decisions.. Its about fighting the best men available which is what legacies are made of.

LOL!!! It is totally relevant! How is the fight going to take place if nobody is willing to promote it for the right purse? These guys are PRIZEFIGHTERS - that is, they fight for a PRIZE; its not a hobby . . .

raylawpc wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Practical question: Who would have promoted these fights and met the guarantees Joe was demanding to defend his title? Remember, in the early 1940s the prevailing thought was that a fight between two black fighters - even for the heavyweight title and even if one of them was Joe Louis - wouldn't draw flies . . .

Irrelevant.. This not a discussion about business decisions.. Its about fighting the best men available which is what legacies are made of.

LOL!!! It is totally relevant! How is the fight going to take place if nobody is willing to promote it for the right purse? These guys are PRIZEFIGHTERS - that is, they fight for a PRIZE; its not a hobby . . .

Louis and his peoples' decision to go after bigger money fights doesn't erase the fact that there were better men out there.

Franklin deserved to fight Louis more than Abe Simon, A fighter coming off losses before each title shot and his rematch with Louis was actually a charity fight for the navy.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Louis and his peoples' decision to go after bigger money fights doesn't erase the fact that there were better men out there.

Of course it doesn't. Who said it did? But you only fight the best men available if somebody is willing to PAY you to fight the best men available.

Throughout most of Louis title reign, there were many relatively even fighters that he could choose from. It was felt at the time (correct or not) that a fight between two black fighters would not draw very well.
However, it's not like any of the black fighters had spotless records either.
If one of the black fighters would have established himself as clearly the best contender for a decent length of time, than a match with Louis may have been seen as a fight that would draw well.

Really, a champion is really only obliged to defend the title against the top contender once a year. If you are the #1 contender and get passed over, then you have a legitimate beef. However, if you not the #1 contender and the champion fights someone you think is lower than you, you really don't have much a gripe.

You also have to consider that Louis missed some time in WWII. My guess is that he would have fought Bivins during that time if he could have.

Having said all this, it is still would have been nice had a couple more black contenders would have got their shot.

raylawpc wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Louis and his peoples' decision to go after bigger money fights doesn't erase the fact that there were better men out there.

Of course it doesn't. Who said it did? But you only fight the best men available if somebody is willing to PAY you to fight the best men available.

I understand that, and I agree. But the point is that there were some very GOOD fighters back then who were better than some of the ones who got title shots. I'm aware that politics, business decisions and perhaps other factors led to those fights not being made.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Throughout most of Louis title reign, there were many relatively even fighters that he could choose from. It was felt at the time (correct or not) that a fight between two black fighters would not draw very well.
However, it's not like any of the black fighters had spotless records either.
If one of the black fighters would have established himself as clearly the best contender for a decent length of time, than a match with Louis may have been seen as a fight that would draw well.

Really, a champion is really only obliged to defend the title against the top contender once a year. If you are the #1 contender and get passed over, then you have a legitimate beef. However, if you not the #1 contender and the champion fights someone you think is lower than you, you really don't have much a gripe.

You also have to consider that Louis missed some time in WWII. My guess is that he would have fought Bivins during that time if he could have.

Having said all this, it is still would have been nice had a couple more black contenders would have got their shot.

Elmer Ray vs Joe Louis would have been a fun fight to watch between to huge punchers. I don't know if its true or not but several years ago on ESB, someone said that Louis fought Ray in an exhibition and beat him senseless, but I have no source to verify this.

If they found someone to promote Louis vs John Henry Lewis, they could've found someone to promote Louis vs Bivins or Franklin or Elmer Ray. At least one of them.

Cap wrote:If they found someone to promote Louis vs John Henry Lewis, they could've found someone to promote Louis vs Bivins or Franklin or Elmer Ray. At least one of them.

Now that you mention him, A john Henry Lewis thread would probably be a good one to start. Good light heavyweight champion and probably underrated.

Cap wrote:If they found someone to promote Louis vs John Henry Lewis, they could've found someone to promote Louis vs Bivins or Franklin or Elmer Ray. At least one of them.

Now that you mention him, A john Henry Lewis thread would probably be a good one to start. Good light heavyweight champion and probably underrated.

Cap wrote:If they found someone to promote Louis vs John Henry Lewis, they could've found someone to promote Louis vs Bivins or Franklin or Elmer Ray. At least one of them.

Sorry for the duplicate responses. I had to click "submit" multiple times before it worked, and it showed up three times.