BoxRec

Very interesting thread -- I'd like to read more.

Usually all we ever hear about is how Liston was so feared and dominant.

Il Duce wrote:Charles 'Sonny' Liston

No doubt a good Heavyweight, but a further look shows that he was very over-rated by the boxing pundits.

Most of the other Heavyweight Fighters in the early-1960's did not regard Sonny Boy in high esteem, as many
said he was a 'slow oaf' who was either protected or put in with selected fighters.

1963

Doug Jones >

Yes, Sonny Liston can punch. But he can't hit anybody that moves. Forget about the bout with Floyd Patterson,
as Floyd was frightened and frozen stiff.

If you move, Sonny is too slow to follow. He needs to plant both his feet to throw punches. He can't box worth
a 'Plug Nickel', and his Camp knows it. He wants to fight guys who can't move {Ingemar Johansson and Zora Folley},
and he'll try to avoid Ernie Terrell, Eddie Machen and me.

He'll fight Cassius Clay, only because he will get about $1,000,000 because of the gate attraction.

I'm not afraid of that 'boat shoe clown'. He's so slow and fights like a clod.

Cassius Clay should have changed his name to William 'Bill' Faversham Jr. because of he way he owned Sonny Liston.

Il Duce wrote:Johnny Summerlin

Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains
little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and
let him hit you.

But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and
he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing.

Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that,
Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal.

How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an
inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.

Slow Big and Dumb Sonny beat Summerlin twice so Summerlin is dumber.

Carlos Danger wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Johnny Summerlin

Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains
little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and
let him hit you.

But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and
he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing.

Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that,
Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal.

How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an
inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.

Slow Big and Dumb Sonny beat Summerlin twice so Summerlin is dumber.

Carlos, not to get off subject, but do you happen to be a rather famous former Congressman from NY?

Il Duce wrote:September 7, 1960

#1 ~ Sonny Liston vs. #2 ~ Eddie Machen

The Boxing Pundits stated that they felt Eddie Machen was more than capable of handling himself
against Sonny Liston.

This does not sound like an 'unbeatable' fighting machine.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... X76eA3EuVg

Eddie Machen >
'Sonny thinks that he can scare everybody with his scowl. He still has to fight me in the Ring. That stare is a waste of
time. I may just smack it off his face at the pre-fight weigh-in. He's a just big oaf, with two left feet.'

Not sure why anyone would think this. If you watch videos of Liston training, he appears to have good balance and coordination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXSJIxIe_AE

Carlos Danger wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Johnny Summerlin

Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains
little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and
let him hit you.

But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and
he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing.

Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that,
Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal.

How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an
inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.

Slow Big and Dumb Sonny beat Summerlin twice so Summerlin is dumber.

Remember, Summerlin didn't actually make any of those offensive comments.

They were made up by our own resident racist twat Il Duce.

I find Il Duce's using fights guys won to cut them down approach a strange one indeed.

I mean Sonny Liston knocked these dudes out. Punchers are almost never known to be the slickest movers or the greatest thinkers in the ring. They just go for the KO's, and more often than not Liston got them.



P.S. I doubt that Ingemar made those quotes you attributed to him, as you are the king of BS quotes, but for what it's worth. Liston would've mopped the floor with Johansson.

Il Duce wrote:September 18, 1962

Johnny Summerlin >

'Sonny Liston is big, slow and dumb.'

Hey Giancarlo, "How about them Apples."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... OnLXPK2dlw

Nice. Unfortunately the article also makes it clear that you made up the part about Summerlin dismissing Liston's victories against Patterson by claiming that Patterson was "damaged goods". In fact the article is from before Liston's title shot and Summerlin confidently picks the "dedicated champion, always in shape" with his "fast hands and boxing skill" to stop Liston in five or six rounds.

Il Duce wrote:Solomon,

I never said that. I stated that Johnny Summerlin said that Sonny Liston was 'big, slow and dumb'.

Edited your previous post, I see. Nice try, but the original is preserved in Carlos' quote and reads:


Johnny Summerlin

Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains
little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and
let him hit you.

But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and
he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing.

Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that,
Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal.

How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an
inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.

People who say Liston was overrated could not have been around at the time.
He would have Ko'd Marciano and Frazier, and even with Tyson"s speed, Liston"s jab may have been decisive. (In a great fight).

Il Duce wrote:Charles 'Sonny' Liston



Most of the other Heavyweight Fighters in the early-1960's did not regard Sonny Boy in high esteem, as many

So the testimony of TWO or THREE fighters whom you listed accounts for MOST of the other heavyweights from that era? LOL.. And of course contenders talking smack about the champion is something that NOBODY ever did in any period of the sport Incidentally, Liston beat Machen and was later promoted by Ingo.

Billyjoel wrote:People who say Liston was overrated could not have been around at the time.
He would have Ko'd Marciano and Frazier, and even with Tyson"s speed, Liston"s jab may have been decisive. (In a great fight).

He certainly had the reigning champ Patterson peeing in his pants and did a pretty good job at demolishing most of the division on his way up. His post-Ali career wasn't that bad either.

Il Duce wrote:James McCarter

I threw Sonny around the Ring like a 'Tennis Ball'. Oh, he's strong against little guys, but when he
tangled with me I nearly threw him out of the Ring up The Pines Hotel up in South Fallsburg, New York.

Sonny's good for 3-Rounds, then he 'Joe Ordinary'.

I wonder what Cleveland Williams would have to say about sonny " only being strong against little guys"

Il Duce wrote:James McCarter

I threw Sonny around the Ring like a 'Tennis Ball'. Oh, he's strong against little guys, but when he
tangled with me I nearly threw him out of the Ring up The Pines Hotel up in South Fallsburg, New York.

Sonny's good for 3-Rounds, then he 'Joe Ordinary'.

Who?

Il Duce wrote:

Tomasino wrote:

Il Duce wrote:James McCarter

I threw Sonny around the Ring like a 'Tennis Ball'. Oh, he's strong against little guys, but when he
tangled with me I nearly threw him out of the Ring up The Pines Hotel up in South Fallsburg, New York.

Sonny's good for 3-Rounds, then he 'Joe Ordinary'.

Who?

Obviously Tomasino, you are not the expert you claim to be. You sir, are an 'Amateur'.

You are an expert in scraping the bottom of the barrel

Il Duce wrote:Tomasino,

I found your Mother down there.

Jimmy McCarter, beat Sonny Liston in the 1953 National AAU Tournament.

Yea, he was nobody.

His opinion of Sonny has no bearing on his pro career. Tell my mum I said hello, she's been dead 7 years.

Then if what you say is true, there is absolutely no reason for any of us to assume anything unusual was going on when the pretty good Cassius Clay (Later known as Muhammad Ali) who had won gold at the Olympics, persevered over the lesser talented, and overly hyped Sonny Liston.
It was simply a misunderstanding of how good Sonny was, that brought so many to believe that it would take subversion, or a miracle for that to happen. When in fact, it was easily predictable, by you, and any and all folks on the eastern seaboard.




You've singlehandedly cracked the case!
Let's drink~!

Your rating of Sonny has deflated in your time spent on this forum. Even more so if we add your works from previous forums. Is this a personal evolution? Or are you needing to deconstruct some in order for all things to fit into the " boxing grand unification theory"?

The Sonny Liston who fought Clay in both of their fights was obviously past his prime, though most didn't think that at the time.. Nor would I have picked even the best version of Liston to beat Clay anyway. But from about 1959 to 1962 he was one of the heavyweight division's most devastating men in its history. He defeated Eddie Machen, Floyd Patterson, Howard King, Cleveland Williams, Zora Folley and a myriad of others with ease. While he only stood somewhere around 6'1", his arm length was unusually long for a man of that height. he also wasn't the slow plodder that we saw against Clay. In his prime, his weight was somewhere around 212-215 lbs, with a chizzled physique and was actually quite mobile. His Jab is believed to be one of the very best, rivaled only by those of Holmes, Wlad and Ali. I don't know where his power sizes up in relation to Foreman, Shavers, Tyson, etc but he certainly makes that fraternity.. If one tries, they can always find little news clippings, old periodicals, and quotes written somewhere which discredits pretty much any fighter.. Twenty years from now, a young version of Il Duce will post a snippet about how Mike Tyson was floored in sparring by Greg Page and how Page said afterward that Tyson wouldn't stand a chance in the ring against him ( Not that he really said that. ) No one looks perfect in the eyes of everybody, and quite simply that's because NOBODY is perfect. Doesn't change the fact that most fighters didn't stand a chance against them in their primes, and Sonny Liston proved just that.

Might want to look at my question again....unless you are saying you were formerly unaware of the Westphal fight, went back, got familiar with it, and it changed your entire viewpoint on Sonny.

Think Westphal took a dive in that fight?

Are you trying to underrate every Ali's opponent?

That's right, everyone he ever fought was a bum, washed up, or took a dive. In the case of Liston, all three.