BoxRec

I was watching Norton vs Young and Norton vs Holmes the other day and it was mentioned on the commentary that Ali wanted $12.5 million to face Norton for a fourth time. A figure which for the time was totally unrealistic. It can be read that Ali priced himself out of the fight as Norton would have needed a sum also. .
It has been rumoured before but did Ali lose to Spinks deliberately?? To get out of a Norton match??


evrenb

No

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No

LOL Thanks

No, he just underestimated Spinks.
Ultimately of course, it allowed him to become the first ever 3 time heavyweight champion of the world.

Il Duce wrote:Financially

It sure looked like he didn't want to fight Ken Norton again.

Because he would have been 'massacred'.

I dont think he would have been massacred but certainly Norton was his Boogeyman . . no question and I would pick Kenny over Ali in 1978. It seemed a perfect ending for Ali ; to lose the title to the upstart and then become the first champ to win the title three times. Watching Ali in the studio prior to the Norton vs Holmes fight with Frank Gifford it seems to me this was perhaps a manafactured move by Ali. Perhaps that is the cynic in me?

Wish he stayed retired post Spinks

Very interesting dynamic and change of events during this time in the heavyweight division....

Ali was hoping to defend the title against Duane Bobick, who had the fanfare and the money backers to generate a multi-million dollar bout--- however Ken Norton was already the #1 contender, and Ali was pressed to fight him again--- so what Team Ali managed to do was delay this, by offering a match to the potential winner of Norton/Bobick; and Ali was banking on Bobick to defeat Norton, because this would not only keep Norton out of the picture, but also make Bobick an even bigger star and more "credible" a threat in the eyes of promoters.

Unfortunately for Ali, and for promoters the nation over, Bobick was hit on the chin by a devestating right hand, which slipped under the jaw and clocked Bobick in the throat as well--- and Duane wasn't able to recover. First round knockout--- and Norton was more popular than ever, and poor Bobick became the butt end of jokes on SNL for months to come.

Now that Norton was under contract to fight Ali for a fourth time and there was no means or way out of the situation, and the fight itself wasn't worth (to quote Tex Ricard) "a bucket of piss"--- they looked quickly for an alternate means to back out. Team Ali, realising also that Muhammad was much slower, more open to counters, etc than ever before decided on making a novelty fight. Originally the opponent in mind was Ali's greatest rival in the amateurs (last name of Green I believe) who had knocked out Ali, prior to turning pro. Unfortunately for Team Ali, this man had never turned professional, and they were told in order for him to fight Ali for the title, he would have to beat someone in the top ten--- so this idea was abandoned.

Just when they were about to quit and sign on to meet Norton, Leon Spinks came onto the national scene. He had represented America in the Olympics, winning the gold, alongside his brother Michael and to the surprise of many in just a handful of fights held top ten contender Scott LeDoux to a draw. Ali, and his entourage, immediately were interested in Spinks. There was just one catch: he still wasn't ranked in the top ten. So, it was arranged for him to square off against arguably the weakest link in the chain: Alfio Righetti, and Spinks of course outscored him and became 'certified'.

Norton, more than agitated, was given hush money and was told he would be getting the first crack at the title following Ali-Spinks, and grumbled as he counted his tens of thousands.

The promotional zeal and pitch of the fight was a promoter's dream. Ali being a gold medalist, would be facing the fourth Olympic medalist in his career (the other three? Patterson, Frazier, Foreman). The fact that this man was only 5-0-1 as a professional, and the fact that Ali had been champion for so long, was truly one for the ages--- not since Patterson fought Rademacher had there ever been such a contest. Spinks was a media darling and young and on paper (at least) he could do no wrong; Ali on the other hand was both the most beloved and despised athlete of the 20th century. This was history in the making, for a number of reasons.

Ali, however, was not fearful or apprehensive of Spinks. He couldn't fathom in his mind how someone of so little experience could possibly beat an elite professional with over 20 years experience. He knew deep down, instinctively, that he was older, slower, and his reflexes were sharply dropping fast--- but he figured his toughness, and experience would be more than enough to stop the young upstart. So, the result? Ali hardly trained one iota and got fat. Spinks on the other hand, trained like a madman, and when fight night came it was obvious from the get go how this match would go.

Ali couldn't dance, couldn't do no fancy moves, and resorted to doing the 'Rope-A-Dope', hoping that Spinks would punch himself out---- but Spinks was conditioned and he was young, and his reign of punches did not stop. The result was unaminous, Spinks was the winner, and it was too easy. Ali, for the first time since 1972, was the victim of a loss. The public was stunned beyond belief--- a man who defeated monsters like Liston and Foreman and Shavers, be beaten like a school boy by a man with less than ten professional bouts was unbelievable.

Of course, Norton came calling--- but Spinks had other plans. It was far more lucrative for Spinks to rematch Ali, than it would be to face Norton, who Spinks knew was still in his prime and far more dangerous than Ali could ever be at this stage--- so instead of honoring his commitments to Norton, he abdicated a piece of the crown (WBC) and defended the WBA against Ali. Norton, by proxy, was declared the WBC champion by default and was slated to defend it against one of Ali's former sparring partners Larry Holmes.

The second time around, Ali took Spinks seriously--- trained harder than he had in many years, allegedly doing over 1,000 sit ups a day and running several miles a day, and he even dieted eating salmon and grapefruit juice to shed several pounds of unnecessary weight. Spinks on the other hand, the success and fame of being a champion went to his head--- unbeknownst to the general public, even when he was an amateur, Spinks had substance abuse problems. Now that he was champion, the drugs, the booze, the women, and the high times came faster than ever--- and he spent most of his training camp either intoxicated or getting detoxed.

The result? Though it was a boring, slow paced contest, Ali managed to stay on his feet the entire fifteen rounds--- using the center of the ring to control the distance and pace of the contest, and slowly but surely out pointed a weak, tired, and mentally drained Spinks. Howard Cosell was yelling enthusiastically "He's giving Spinks a boxing lesson!", which would be the last positive comment ever said in an Ali fight. Following the contest, Ali said he was tired, more tired than ever, that he had done this for so long, and that he kept asking himself why he was still doing this. He was obviously admitting he was done, finished, with boxing.

However, Ali would not retire until mid 1979. His number one contender, who was sitting at ringside during Ali-Spinks II, Gerrie Coetzee was pushing and pursuing to get his chance at Ali. But it was not meant to be--- Ali did a few exhibitions in the UK and even did some lectures as mock sparring sessions at colleges across America; hell he even did an exhibition contest with football player Lyle Alzado, and then announced his retirement--- rather than risk the embarassment of losing to a younger, well trained and determined fighter.

A great insight Homicide....thanks...

If Ali really didn't want to fight Norton, he could have just retired.

He was old, well past his best & had nothing left to prove to anybody.

Most people who truly cared for him had been urging him to retire since before Norton 3 in 1976.

Ali could have retired after Norton 3 if was really avoiding him & stepped back in anytime he liked.

He could have waited to see how things panned out & come back some time down the line & got a title shot straight away, such was his stature.

The fact he, he lost to Spinks because he gave Leon no respect & didn't prepare properly.

Ali had forgotten that he had declined massively & probably still thought of himself as the fighter he was from 1966.

By 1978, Ali had little left & had to really be properly prepared to beat anybody.

In short, he never lost on purpose, because I don't believe he would have been that silly.

Hi Syntax..thanks for your post. Possibly.correct though I disagree.....I think money was a major factor for Ali continuing. He wanted the big purse with less risk....,?

I think Ali would have had too much pride to throw a fight to Spinks.

Always felt sorry for Duane Bobick. He was a good fighter and I dont think deserved the stick he got from the American public.

evrenb wrote:Hi Syntax..thanks for your post. Possibly.correct though I disagree.....I think money was a major factor for Ali continuing. He wanted the big purse with less risk....,?

Yes, good point.

I can see a scenario where Ali might have been looking for an easy payday at that stage in his career, but I could never countenance him throwing a fight in order to avoid potential meeting with another opponent; he just wasn't that kind of guy.

Im an Ali numero uno fan...I know by the late 1970's he was looking for massive purses to secure his future retirement. . .im not sure...i know it has been suggested by others in the past...maybw not 'threw' the fight but 'orchestrated' the happenings of 1978 maybe...

Il Duce wrote:

evrenb wrote:Im an Ali numero uno fan...I know by the late 1970's he was looking for massive purses to secure his future retirement. . .im not sure...i know it has been suggested by others in the past...maybw not 'threw' the fight but 'orchestrated' the happenings of 1978 maybe...

Sir, I like the way you think..........

I have been thinking in 'inverted commas' like someone else I know !

The 15th round of Ali-Spinks 1 was the Round of the Year. Both men went for the knockout in that round. The only thing BOTH guys were doing was trying to knock the other one out.

One of the best 15th rounds in boxing history.

Il Duce wrote:January 15, 1978

Miami Beach, Florida

Muhammad Ali {235 lbs.} exhibited some fine footwork in going 5-Rounds with young Michael Dokes in a
heated sparring session.

Angelo Dundee >
"My guy has fantastic legs, and he's carrying about 12 lbs. of extra weight. Muhammad's legs are in
great condition already, and with a little less weight he will be so fast, he'll dance circles around Leon Spinks."

"I hear Leon Spinks is stuck up in a 'Snow Storm' in Monticello. He'll never be able to get in enough roadwork to
chase down Muhammad. I'm glad the 'Promoter' sent him up there. This way, he can't get any sparring
partners either."

"We always make sure we're dealing the Cards"........... ;;-)

Could you please provide a source on these quotes? Thanks.

Il Duce wrote:January 15, 1978

Miami Beach, Florida

Muhammad Ali {235 lbs.} exhibited some fine footwork in going 5-Rounds with young Michael Dokes in a
heated sparring session.

Angelo Dundee >
"My guy has fantastic legs, and he's carrying about 12 lbs. of extra weight. Muhammad's legs are in
great condition already, and with a little less weight he will be so fast, he'll dance circles around Leon Spinks."

"I hear Leon Spinks is stuck up in a 'Snow Storm' in Monticello. He'll never be able to get in enough roadwork to
chase down Muhammad. I'm glad the 'Promoter' sent him up there. This way, he can't get any sparring
partners either."

"We always make sure we're dealing the Cards"........... ;;-)

I dont know how true this is, or would of been. I do know, however, that Ali did face off against Dokes in an exhibition match where Ali fought three or five men. Dokes, I believe, was only 17 at the time and was more or less a light heavyweight--- though you could see, his skill set was such that he looked like a certified professional. I have a hard time believing that someone aged 17 or possibly younger being a sparring partner in Muhammad Ali's training camp for a mega-fight, even for Spinks.

Il Duce wrote:If you research,

You can find that Leon Spinks left Kutsher's Country Club in Monticello, New York January 17, 1978 -
because he could 'not' do any Roadwork.

Also, there were no capable Heavyweight sparring-partners around. Leon had to use brother Michael as his
key sparring-partner.

Leon also worked out with the Montgomery County {New York} Amateur Boxing Team while up at Kutsher's.

Leon then switched his Training Headquarters to Upper Darby, Pennsylvania.

Michael Spinks trained alongside Leon because Michael had a fight on the undercard and he remained there with him to keep Leon off drugs. Leon got bored easily and was known to disappear for days on end during other training camps.

Leon had other sparring partners besides Michael, too. Leon was sparring with Roy "Tiger" Williams when he tore a muscle around his ribs a few weeks before the fight. Because of the injury, his team decided not to let him spar anymore, so Leon just ran a lot and hit the bags.

They also injected Leon with pain killers before the first Ali fight so the torn muscle wouldn't bother him. Vegas was pretty lax back then and didn't perform urine tests after fights. Spinks' team also knew if they postponed the bout it probably wouldn't be rescheduled.

If Nevada had tested him, Leon probably would've tested positive for A LOT of drugs. Here are excerpts from Hauser's book on Ali and the book "One Punch from the Promised Land" (about the Spinks brothers):

great reading those book pages.
i had this saved here, just to add to that..


...........


It was time for him to enter the ring in New Orleans for his rematch with Ali, but Leon had disappeared, and neither his camp nor his bodyguard—Mr. T., the future Clubber Lang—could find him. He was finally located in a hotel room, drunk.
As Ali stood in his corner calmly waiting for the fight to begin, Leon reached for his brother and held him in a tight, lingering embrace. He might have been voicing some version of the old spiritual’s lament: Nobody Knows the Trouble I’ve Seen. But Michael knew.
Somehow Leon managed to fight on relatively even terms with Ali for five rounds before Ali took command. It wasn’t much of a fight. Ali danced for the first time in years, but he landed mostly one- and two-punch combinations while holding Leon ceaselessly over 15 rounds and winning a lopsided decision. Leon went back out partying and kept the party going for years, though his career quickly became a sideshow. He lost about as often as he won, drank up his paydays in single sittings, and generally lived the life of a wild, not terribly bright dude. Years later, training Leon for one last shot at remaking his career, Emanuel Steward went looking for the fighter and found him in the usual place—a hotel—and in the usual state—drunk, naked, and with a woman. “Coach, it ain’t like it look,” he said.
Leon wound up broke.
Where Leon was madcap, Michael was reserved and enigmatic, only slightly off-kilter and in none of the ways that make headlines. “Michael always seemed so logical compared to Leon,” promoter Bob Arum said. “It seemed to me that Michael had some sense. Leon never had any sense.” Michael turned out to be a better fighter than his older brother, too, largely because of his personal stability and discipline. But in 1983, his life was upended when his common-law wife, the mother of his two-year old daughter, was killed in a car accident weeks before he was to fight Dwight Muhammad Qawi to unify the light heavyweight title. Just as he was preparing to enter the ring, someone brought the little girl into Michael’s dressing room. She promptly asked him where her mother was. Michael almost went to pieces, but he went out and beat Qawi.
Michael had a curious ability to inspire disdain in his opponents, perhaps because of his unusual style, if it was a style. He’d start out orthodox, but in the heat of battle punches would start flying in from all angles. In 1985, when Michael beat Holmes — then 48-0 and one win away from equaling Rocky Marciano’s perfect record — Holmes complained about the decision. The following year, Holmes had a legitimate gripe about their rematch, which Michael also won by decision: most observers thought Holmes deserved the nod. Even in 1987, when Michael knocked out the much bigger Gerry Cooney, whom he feared, he couldn’t seem to convince his opponent. The usually gracious Cooney said that Michael didn’t belong in the same ring with him.
Where Leon endured a sustained descent, Michael’s downfall was mercifully brief: in June 1988, he faced off against Mike Tyson in the bout that would unify (for a few years at least) the heavyweight title. Tyson was at his peak, a terrifying force combining speed and power. Emanuel Steward told how before the Tyson fight, Michael was afraid to leave his dressing room. He entered the Atlantic City ring, as the authors put it, wearing “the look of a rabbit that had just spotted a hunter’s rifle.” Michael’s trainer, Eddie Futch, wanted him to box Tyson, to stay away for four or five rounds—easier said than done in those days. “Take him out in deep water and then we can drown him,” he said. Tyson never gave them a chance, annihilating Spinks in 91 seconds. It was Michael’s only loss as a professional and his last fight.
Michael lives on a generous spread outside Wilmington, Delaware, and mostly keeps a low profile.

(by John Florio and Ouisie Shapiro)

If I remember right, the first bout with Spinks was a little unusual for Ali because, for once, the Louisville Lip was not talking much leading up to the bout. In fact, I think this was the bout in which a Charlie Chaplin impersonator was part of Ali's entourage entering the ring to emphasize the point.

Ali guest starred in an episode of Different Stroke tv program broadcast on Oct 24, 1979. The diminished motor skills seemed quite apparent by then, and may explain how Spinks could be so competitive with The Greatest at this point in time. I'm certain he never threw the bout, and hate seeing all the unnecessary punches he took late in his career.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfPcLylJRAk

I don't think he did, if anything, probably looked at Leon, first impression was that he was not all that, and trained lightly. And what happened happened. Maybe Muhammad should've fought John Tate instead.