BoxRec

The George Foreman against Muhammad Ali fight in Kinshasa, Zaire ((Present day Democratic Republic Congo (DRC)). ------ Clearly, Muhammad Ali won this fight by an 8th round knockout.

In this fight, what did George do wrong?

Could George have won this fight?

If so, how?



Or, was George doomed from the start? Was Muhammad Ali that much superior over George Foreman?

What George did wrong was think that he could overwhelm and destroy Ali the same way he did Ken Norton and Joe Frazier, and attempt to attack him that way. He burnt himself out, and got Knocked out.

In all honesty though. I don't think there's anything he could've done differently to have won the fight. If he had tried to have been more patient and box more with Ali he would've lost just the same, it just may have taken a few more rounds.

NYDominican wrote:The George Foreman against Muhammad Ali fight in Kinshasa, Zaire ((Present day Democratic Republic Congo (DRC)). ------ Clearly, Muhammad Ali won this fight by an 8th round knockout.

In this fight, what did George do wrong?

Could George have won this fight?

If so, how?



Or, was George doomed from the start? Was Muhammad Ali that much superior over George Foreman?

Foreman should have fought this fight on his turf. Houston, TX. He was the champ. He should have dictated the terms.

Fighting this fight in some far off location at some absurd time like 4 AM just wouldn't cut it for me if I was part of Foreman's management.

I never thought Foreman looked right in this fight. He seemed sluggish and weirdly out of sync from the get-go to me.

Not much would surprise me when it comes to boxing.

p.s. If you get a chance, catch Bundini Brown's voodoo stare down antics directed at GF in the ring before the fight.
Hilarious, but who knows, it might have worked. DD

yancey wrote:

NYDominican wrote:The George Foreman against Muhammad Ali fight in Kinshasa, Zaire ((Present day Democratic Republic Congo (DRC)). ------ Clearly, Muhammad Ali won this fight by an 8th round knockout.

In this fight, what did George do wrong?

Could George have won this fight?

If so, how?



Or, was George doomed from the start? Was Muhammad Ali that much superior over George Foreman?

Foreman should have fought this fight on his turf. Houston, TX. He was the champ. He should have dictated the terms.

Fighting this fight in some far off location at some absurd time like 4 AM just wouldn't cut it for me if I was part of Foreman's management.

I never thought Foreman looked right in this fight. He seemed sluggish and weirdly out of sync from the get-go to me.

Not much would surprise me when it comes to boxing.

p.s. If you get a chance, catch Bundini Brown's voodoo stare down antics directed at GF in the ring before the fight.
Hilarious, but who knows, it might have worked. DD

A very fantastical comment from an Ali hater and Frazier lover.

$5,000,000 each dictated the location. They both had to fight at 4am...it was equal terms. Ali was in such good form physically in late 1973 to 1975 as his resume shows - beat Frazier twice , beat Norton , beat Lyle and Bugner also...this period was his second prime...

On the night and in those conditions with the heat and the postponement and so on I think the fight was very difficult for him to win. Had they fought in different conditions I think Foreman could have beaten that version of Ali but he would never have done it boxing carefully and pacing himself. All out attack was the only way and if he had been sharper and without the heat he could have bagged enough rounds against the slightly passed it Ali. Also I think Foreman would have lasted the distance and lost on points in Zaire had he not missed the count.

I think it's fair to say Ali felt more "at home" there than Foreman did.

It's said that Foreman tried to go home after being cut in sparring but was physically stopped from leavign the country. He didn't exactly endear himself to them, turning up with his German Shepherds at the start of his training camp.

Foreman himself said at the time he had all the excuses under the sun for losing - my boots were too tight, the ropes too loose, the ring too slippy etc but admits now that he fought the wrong fight.

Does anyone know how soon after the fight ending the downpour started? What that have had an effect on things, had he beaten the count?

hhaehre wrote:On the night and in those conditions with the heat and the postponement and so on I think the fight was very difficult for him to win. Had they fought in different conditions I think Foreman could have beaten that version of Ali but he would never have done it boxing carefully and pacing himself. All out attack was the only way and if he had been sharper and without the heat he could have bagged enough rounds against the slightly passed it Ali. Also I think Foreman would have lasted the distance and lost on points in Zaire had he not missed the count.

However, Ali fought in the same ring under the same conditions?? As we know boxing is a Mental as well as physical sport. Ali was just a greater mental athelete to George at that time. George went on to prove himself later on many times of course.
To think George would have survived another 7 rounds is crrrraaaaaazzzzzzyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He couldnt stand up !!!

What did George do wrong?

He turned up!

Joking aside, he just wasn't prepared for Ali's tactics, plus he underestimated Ali & what he had left: to be fair to Foreman, so did the rest of the planet.

Syntax Error wrote:What did George do wrong?

He turned up!

Joking aside, he just wasn't prepared for Ali's tactics, plus he underestimated Ali & what he had left: to be fair to Foreman, so did the rest of the planet.

That is true. I remember some years back they released a Ring Magazine that revisited a lot of Pre-Fight and Post-Fight coverage of the "Rumble in the Jungle", and several people were picking Foreman via KO inside 3 or 4 rounds.

In all fairness how can you blame them?

When you see a guy get outmuscled and outworked by 2 guys (Frazier and Norton) and drop clear decisions to them, and then you see another guy smash both of those guys in 2 rounds. Of course you're gonna pick the guy that smashed those dudes in 2 rounds over the guy that lost to them.

Even today with the knowledge of this fight in our memory banks, it would hard to go against the guy that did this if this scenario repeated itself.

It's all so easy, in retrospect, to point out what was wrong and what wasn't.

I mean, Foreman was 40-0-0 going into this fight with Ali. He blew away Frazier in two rounds, blew away Norton in two rounds--- Ali went the distance with both of those guys. I think at the time of the fight, there was only one sportswriter of note who actually picked Ali to win. What Foreman did, in that fight, was what everybody expected him to do, in order to win.

Hell, even Ali's cornermen were yelling at Ali the whole time saying "Get off the ropes, he will kill you!" and begging him to dance and box rings around Foreman. Truth be told, I think Ali knew down deep in his heart, had he done so, he wouldn't of been able to of kept Foreman off of him and would of likely been dropped to the canvas.

On the ropes, he was safe. He could cover up, and could throw punches back, and have a place to rest. Nobody in a million years, thought such a tactic would work against a guy like Foreman. But at its conclusion, it made you think that Foreman could have been twice as powerful and that Ali could of still won it the same way.

Sure, George punched himself out. But I think his exhaustion was just as much mental and emotional as it was physical. Even though he was dropped, he did get up at the count of nine. But it was obvious he was finished. Had it continued, Ali would of stopped him anyways. However--- I still maintain, there wasn't much else Foreman could have done, to of won that fight. After all, what worked for forty others, didnt on Ali. Why change your style for one fight only?

It must be noted, though, Ali never did give Foreman a rematch. And I think to myself, there had to of been a reason as to why considering there were two years before that Young fight. Foreman, in the eyes of many, wasn't as great as Ali was--- but he certainly was the second best in the world. I think, in a rematch, Foreman would of done either better--- or worse--- than he did in Zaire. Why worse? He was a complete mental case after Zaire. He was more aggressive, more reckless and violent and prone to dirty tactics in the ring. He also had a tremendous ego. Like he said, after the 'Toronto Five' exhibition in 1975, "He (Ali) didnt beat George Foreman, he beat some banana picker over there!"

But I think, team Ali, did fear that maybe Foreman would have been better after the loss, because maybe he would of learned to pace himself and fight differently and Ali wouldnt of had the stamina to box with Foreman, not for fifteen rounds.

I think if Foreman hadn't been run out of gas, he would have won. And he wouldn't have been run out of gas if he had fought smart and not get involved in Ali's rope-a-dope and start to throw precise, lethal punches instead of throw them in the Muhammad's guard. Then, he could even win by KO.

But that's my opinion.

I'm shocked that some are potentially questioning Ali's stamina, when, a year later & year older, he fought in some of the most oppressive conditions a fighter has ever had to fighter under, against a man who was much more of a pressure fighter than Foreman, that gave him little or no rest for 14 rounds & Ali still managed to tough it out & prevail, even if he admitted that he wanted to quit.

Foreman never had the stamina nor the discipline to pace himself against someone like Ali.

'70s Foreman was a wrecking ball type fighter & he was used to seeing his opponents fall when he punched them.

He was not mentally prepared for a man who could not only take his blows, but laugh them off & hit him back faster & more often.

I cannot see anyway in which George Foreman could ever have beaten a 'living' Ali & I'm not even talking about prime Ali of '66 vintage.

Is anyone here naïve or blind enough to think Ali fully absorbed and handled Foreman's best shots?

He may have rode with some good shots, but he never got hit with the full impact of what Foreman could bring when fresh.

Of course some idiots here will interpret this as an Ali slam, but it is actually a compliment.

evrenb wrote:

yancey wrote:

NYDominican wrote:The George Foreman against Muhammad Ali fight in Kinshasa, Zaire ((Present day Democratic Republic Congo (DRC)). ------ Clearly, Muhammad Ali won this fight by an 8th round knockout.

In this fight, what did George do wrong?

Could George have won this fight?

If so, how?



Or, was George doomed from the start? Was Muhammad Ali that much superior over George Foreman?

Foreman should have fought this fight on his turf. Houston, TX. He was the champ. He should have dictated the terms.

Fighting this fight in some far off location at some absurd time like 4 AM just wouldn't cut it for me if I was part of Foreman's management.

I never thought Foreman looked right in this fight. He seemed sluggish and weirdly out of sync from the get-go to me.

Not much would surprise me when it comes to boxing.

p.s. If you get a chance, catch Bundini Brown's voodoo stare down antics directed at GF in the ring before the fight.
Hilarious, but who knows, it might have worked. DD

A very fantastical comment from an Ali hater and Frazier lover.

$5,000,000 each dictated the location. They both had to fight at 4am...it was equal terms. Ali was in such good form physically in late 1973 to 1975 as his resume shows - beat Frazier twice , beat Norton , beat Lyle and Bugner also...this period was his second prime...

I don't hate Ali. Never have.

I despised his very unsporting and demeaning treatment of other fighters, but that does not equivocate to hate.

You unfairly throwing out the hate word all the time proves and shows what a schmuck you truly are.

Il Duce was necessary to distinguish sensible critism from Ali haters.

Now people don't know what does it mean to be a real Ali hater...

yancey wrote:Is anyone here naïve or blind enough to think Ali fully absorbed and handled Foreman's best shots?

He may have rode with some good shots, but he never got hit with the full impact of what Foreman could bring when fresh.

Of course some idiots here will interpret this as an Ali slam, but it is actually a compliment.

For sure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlB-NRQv3OY&t=12m50s

yancey wrote:Is anyone here naïve or blind enough to think Ali fully absorbed and handled Foreman's best shots?

He may have rode with some good shots, but he never got hit with the full impact of what Foreman could bring when fresh.

Of course some idiots here will interpret this as an Ali slam, but it is actually a compliment.

The first round, in and of itself, told the story in my eyes. Foreman landed a devestating right hook on the NECK of Ali, and how Ali was still able to stand is anyone's guess. True, for the most part in the entire fight, Foreman landed to the arms and gloves, and Ali was also able to lean back away from shots--- therefore not feeling the real 'weight' and power of the shots--- but that first round, said it all. Ali could take a punch.

HomicideHenry wrote:It must be noted, though, Ali never did give Foreman a rematch. And I think to myself, there had to of been a reason as to why considering there were two years before that Young fight. .

Yes, and one reason was that Foreman took a year out after Ali beat him. The other reason was, as they were trying to build up to a rematch against Ali, he lost to Young.

Ali never feared a Foreman rematch. He actually tried to entice Foreman out of retirement to deal with Norton for him, with an Ali rematch as his reward.

It's all there in print, been out there for 15, 20 years. Not hard to find.

If you take a look at the RING ratings from the Zaire fight til the Young fight, and you look at many news syndicates discussing the issue, it seems apparent that it was Ali doing the dodging and not Foreman. As for Ali calling out Foreman after he retired, why anyone would put that out as any sort of evidence as to Ali's willingness or Foreman's cowardice is beyond me, because everyone knows that Foreman had the Christian conversion and radically changed overnight--- it would take a decade for him to mentally, emotionally, even consider fighting again.

And, I have a hard time actually believing Ali was serious, if he did indeed call out Foreman after George retired--- because let's face it, the Ali of 1977 and 1978, did not want to deal with anyone of any real serious consequence. He avoided a 4th fight with Norton, he opted to take on Spinks, etc. and fought such men as Evangelista for crying out loud. Sure, he fought Shavers, but let's not overly maximize that circumstance--- Ali didn't want to train hard, didn't want to take risks, anymore.

Ali dodging Foreman is laughable. Even if you read Foreman's autobiog he stops short of a claim like that. He himself refers to Ali asking him to whack Norton for him in exchange for a fight.

As far as Ali dodging anyone of serious consequence 77/78 - he fought Earnie Shavers. And that was after Shavers KOd Roy 'Tiger' Williams. If you are as well researched as you present yourself to be, you surely know how 1970s fighters felt about Williams. Larry Holmes and Earnie Shavers were utterly scared to death of the man.

Let's look at the timeline of events, shall we?

Following Zaire... George Foreman's ranking from that time til 1977 when he fought Jimmy Young...

Annual RING ratings for 1974, Ali the champion, Foreman #1 contender
Annual RING ratings for 1975, Ali the champion, Foreman #4 contender
Annual RING ratings for 1976, Ali the champion, Foreman #1 contender

The year of 1974, in retrospect, Foreman lost the title to Ali in Zaire October 30th; and it is noted that he did seek out a rematch with Ali. In early 1975, Ali at a press conference, stated he was looking at giving Foreman a rematch, Norton or Frazier rematches as well. Instead he fought Chuck Wepner in Cleveland, Ohio in March. It must be noted--- that Foreman would in 1976 destroy Frazier, yet it would be Frazier who would rematch Ali in the Thrilla in Manila, and Foreman was shut out.

All throughout 1975 Foreman pursued Ali into giving him a rematch. Which is why he was inactive during that year. To display his dominance, of being the rightful contender in the division, Foreman (in a promotion unique in boxing) fought five men, one after the other, in Toronto, Canada. Muhammad Ali was the special guest commentator and throughout, Foreman and Ali were arguing with one another and after the fact Foreman was quoted as saying: "He (Ali) didn't beat no George Foreman over there (Zaire), he beat some banana picker!", and still the stunt didn't get him a rematch. Team Ali were pulling the tactics that Foreman had to beat a ranked contender, even though it has been the tradition since time immemorial that a champion who loses, generally has the right to get an automatic rematch.

SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, December 15th 1975, shows how serious Foreman was in pursuing a rematch with Muhammad Ali, and it was the insiders opinion that he deserved it....



1976, Foreman without much recourse, had to face off against rising contender Ron Lyle. In what was voted the 'Fight of The Year' and considered by many to this day to be arguably the greatest heavyweight fight in modern times, Foreman managed to kayo Lyle in five rounds. To top it off, Foreman also kayoed Joe Frazier later that same year (also) in five rounds, in a fight some thought to be more brutal than their first contest. But, Foreman being Foreman, wanted to emphasise the point that he was the best man in the world, kayoed fringe contenders Scott LeDoux (KO3) and Dino Dennis (KO4) as well to bring 1976 to a close.

Still, team Ali insisted Foreman fight more before getting a rematch. And in 1977, he kayoed fringe contender Pedro Agosto in four rounds. Still, it wasn't enough for team Ali. He had to fight Jimmy Young as well; the same Jimmy Young who countless millions insisted had beaten Muhammad Ali by decision some months before, but Ali was given a gift instead. This was also a 'Fight of The Year' winner, and some to this day argue that Foreman probably should of gotten the decision. But, we all know the story and what happened next: Foreman has a near-death experience in the dressing room following the contest, and becomes a born-again Christian and retires from the ring.

Only after this Christian conversion, where Foreman was appearing on Christian television shows and obviously gained a great deal of weight, did Ali ever ask if Foreman wanted that rematch.

If one were to make a conclusion on this whole scenario, it seems obvious that Ali did some pretty heavy duty dodging of rematching Foreman and it's not out of Ali's character to do so, as he would do the same thing (though not to the blatant degree he did with Foreman) against Ken Norton.

We have been down this road before. You keep ignoring what really happened.

You are looking at the annual ratings. Foreman was the #1 contender for 1976, but those ratings did not come out until March of 1977.

Ali did defend the title in 1976 against the # 1 contender (Norton) and the # 2 contender in the same year. That is almost unheard of.

Foreman lost to Young in March of 1977, soon after the ratings were made.

Ali did not duck Foreman, period.

Ambling Alp II wrote:We have been down this road before. You keep ignoring what really happened.

You are looking at the annual ratings. Foreman was the #1 contender for 1976, but those ratings did not come out until March of 1977.

Ali did defend the title in 1976 against the # 1 contender (Norton) and the # 2 contender in the same year. That is almost unheard of.

Foreman lost to Young in March of 1977, soon after the ratings were made.

Ali did not duck Foreman, period.

Spot on.

How can active champion be accused of ducking someone who didn't fight at all in 1975, whilst he is defending against the top ranked guys of the time?

Let's hope this puts paid to the ludicrous notion that Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman.

HomicideHenry wrote:Let's look at the timeline of events, shall we?

Following Zaire... George Foreman's ranking from that time til 1977 when he fought Jimmy Young...

Annual RING ratings for 1974, Ali the champion, Foreman #1 contender
Annual RING ratings for 1975, Ali the champion, Foreman #4 contender
Annual RING ratings for 1976, Ali the champion, Foreman #1 contender

The year of 1974, in retrospect, Foreman lost the title to Ali in Zaire October 30th; and it is noted that he did seek out a rematch with Ali. In early 1975, Ali at a press conference, stated he was looking at giving Foreman a rematch, Norton or Frazier rematches as well. Instead he fought Chuck Wepner in Cleveland, Ohio in March. It must be noted--- that Foreman would in 1976 destroy Frazier, yet it would be Frazier who would rematch Ali in the Thrilla in Manila, and Foreman was shut out.

All throughout 1975 Foreman pursued Ali into giving him a rematch. Which is why he was inactive during that year. To display his dominance, of being the rightful contender in the division, Foreman (in a promotion unique in boxing) fought five men, one after the other, in Toronto, Canada. Muhammad Ali was the special guest commentator and throughout, Foreman and Ali were arguing with one another and after the fact Foreman was quoted as saying: "He (Ali) didn't beat no George Foreman over there (Zaire), he beat some banana picker!", and still the stunt didn't get him a rematch. Team Ali were pulling the tactics that Foreman had to beat a ranked contender, even though it has been the tradition since time immemorial that a champion who loses, generally has the right to get an automatic rematch.

SPORTS ILLUSTRATED, December 15th 1975, shows how serious Foreman was in pursuing a rematch with Muhammad Ali, and it was the insiders opinion that he deserved it....



1976, Foreman without much recourse, had to face off against rising contender Ron Lyle. In what was voted the 'Fight of The Year' and considered by many to this day to be arguably the greatest heavyweight fight in modern times, Foreman managed to kayo Lyle in five rounds. To top it off, Foreman also kayoed Joe Frazier later that same year (also) in five rounds, in a fight some thought to be more brutal than their first contest. But, Foreman being Foreman, wanted to emphasise the point that he was the best man in the world, kayoed fringe contenders Scott LeDoux (KO3) and Dino Dennis (KO4) as well to bring 1976 to a close.

Still, team Ali insisted Foreman fight more before getting a rematch. And in 1977, he kayoed fringe contender Pedro Agosto in four rounds. Still, it wasn't enough for team Ali. He had to fight Jimmy Young as well; the same Jimmy Young who countless millions insisted had beaten Muhammad Ali by decision some months before, but Ali was given a gift instead. This was also a 'Fight of The Year' winner, and some to this day argue that Foreman probably should of gotten the decision. But, we all know the story and what happened next: Foreman has a near-death experience in the dressing room following the contest, and becomes a born-again Christian and retires from the ring.

Only after this Christian conversion, where Foreman was appearing on Christian television shows and obviously gained a great deal of weight, did Ali ever ask if Foreman wanted that rematch.

If one were to make a conclusion on this whole scenario, it seems obvious that Ali did some pretty heavy duty dodging of rematching Foreman and it's not out of Ali's character to do so, as he would do the same thing (though not to the blatant degree he did with Foreman) against Ken Norton.

You are right. Ali did duck Foreman. It is the truth and the truth should be told.

He was never going to give the very dangerous George another chance after that strange fight in Zaire. I think Foreman suspected this and it was naturally a great source of frustration for him.

In this fight, what did George do wrong?
It wouldn't be unfair to say that George practically did everything wrong.

Even before the fight George allowed Muhammad Ali to agitate and provoke him to the extent that he spent half his time in a rage and he literally felt like ripping Ali's head off his shoulders. Physically this is VERY bad for your body. If you are tense and uptight all week - then by the time that fight night comes around your body will be physically exhausted when you do want to "open up" and ask questions of your opponent. Being tense actually saps you of energy and strength in a slow-burning way.

Imagine, for a moment that your opponent was upsetting you consistently every day - that adrenaline would be pumping through your body, your heart rate and pulse rate would go up and yet this is not the fight night - so in a sense (to use a car metaphor) you are putting the breaks on when your body when it wants to accelerate.

Clearly, this is very unhealthy.

To better illustrate this point, let me bring things forward in time to the present day. When Carl Froch fought George Groves last year, he was letting Groves wind him up all the time, he was frequently losing his cool and getting hot-headed about some of George's comments. And again Rob McCracken has identified this as being the reason that Carl was so slow and sluggish that night. Carl was exhausted by the first six rounds... Later in the fight he was able to "open up" better because he was landing punches and getting more comfortable in the ring. But it was a hard nights work for him... He made it harder for himself that what he had to.

For the rematch Carl has hired a sports psychologist to help him keep his calm and prevent his temper from flaring up repeatedly as he did before.

Now - Foreman's biggest mistake was not pacing himself, but that has been said before and I don't need to go in to it.

Could George have won this fight?
Actually I believe that this is a very winnable fight for George. And as an extension of this point, I happen to think that George had the tools to beat any Heavyweight in history - given certain factors:
If he has had the right preparation,
the right strategy to win the fight and
Provided he was entering the ring with the right mentality.

If these three factors were in place. In could be fair to say that George Foreman would be the favourite against anybody.

If so, how?
If George used his boxing brain and fought more intelligently then he could have won this fight. When Angelo Dundee became Feorge's trainer back in the 90s he made the famous quote:
"He throws punches out of windows"
Meaning that George wasted energy in throwing wild punches from all angles (a lot of them ineffective) if George tightened up on his defence, maintained a high guard (to neutralise Ali's jab) and chose the right moments to "open up" with his combinations - and those combos would have to be more deliberate and crisper, more precise to the projected point of contact - whilst maintaining a careful approach. Then this fight could be in the bag for him

I know that there's a lot of requirements there, but to beat a prime Muhammad Ali is no easy thing. It's clear that George would want to revert to his brawling style, and I would actually encourage snippets of him in the later rounds of the fight... George's strength is monumental and provided he paced himself he would always have his punch power to support him.

And that is a massive advantage.

Or, was George doomed from the start?
At the risk of repeating myself - if George had the right preparation, the right strategy and the right mentality, then yes he could have won it. But he would really need to be using his brain and not allow himself to get psyched out.

Was Muhammad Ali that much superior over George Foreman?
Muhammad Ali was a master of boxing psychology. Perhaps Ali's greatest trick was convincing other Heavyweights that he was the greatest of all time - as he kept telling everyone... Because if his opponents really believed that, then they weren't giving themselves much of a chance in beating him.