BoxRec

Go back and read contemporary newspaper accounts of the heavyweight division midway through the reign of Jack Johnson. It was pretty pathetic. At one point, Fireman Jim Flynn, all 5'9" of him, was one of the best caucasian heavies around. Gunboat Smith at 6' 2" and really a light heavyweight, was knocking bigger palookas out left right and center, he even managed a decision over the big plodding Willard. Both Flynn and Smith were easily disposed of by the dwarfish 5' 8" Sam Langford. The only great thing about most of the palefaced heavyweights of that era was their willingness to fight each other which made for some exciting punch-ups.

As for Willard, up until he beat the fat aging Johnson, most boxing writers had a very low opinion of him, marking him as a dull plodder with a fair left jab and little else. After losing in 20 rounds to Gunboat Smith by referee's decision, Willard drew with Charlie "Streetcar" Miller, lost to mediocre George "Boer" Rodel, knocked out a handful of 2nd raters like Dan Daily, Al Williams, and Rodel (twice), and lost a 12 round decision to light heavyweight Tom McMahon. In many of his fights, Willard showed little interest, often coming into the ring with a layer of flab around his middle, and throwing just enough punches to keep the other guy awake. Willard could go 20 rounds with Gunboat Smith because he didn't exert himself, using his long arms to ward off blows, clinch in close and pound Smith in the kidneys.

Much as I like a lot of the old time fighters, if Jess Willard were meeting Wlad Klitschko today over 12 rounds, I'd give the big cow-puncher as much chance as Pianeta, Tony Thompson or Mariusz Wach. Probably less.

thanks - i'll tell old jesse to avoid the big Russian when I see him next

misterpunch wrote:thanks - i'll tell old jesse to avoid the big Russian when I see him next

Ukranian.

Cap wrote:Go back and read contemporary newspaper accounts of the heavyweight division midway through the reign of Jack Johnson. It was pretty pathetic. At one point, Fireman Jim Flynn, all 5'9" of him, was one of the best caucasian heavies around. Gunboat Smith at 6' 2" and really a light heavyweight, was knocking bigger palookas out left right and center, he even managed a decision over the big plodding Willard. Both Flynn and Smith were easily disposed of by the dwarfish 5' 8" Sam Langford. The only great thing about most of the palefaced heavyweights of that era was their willingness to fight each other which made for some exciting punch-ups.

As for Willard, up until he beat the fat aging Johnson, most boxing writers had a very low opinion of him, marking him as a dull plodder with a fair left jab and little else. After losing in 20 rounds to Gunboat Smith by referee's decision, Willard drew with Charlie "Streetcar" Miller, lost to mediocre George "Boer" Rodel, knocked out a handful of 2nd raters like Dan Daily, Al Williams, and Rodel (twice), and lost a 12 round decision to light heavyweight Tom McMahon. In many of his fights, Willard showed little interest, often coming into the ring with a layer of flab around his middle, and throwing just enough punches to keep the other guy awake. Willard could go 20 rounds with Gunboat Smith because he didn't exert himself, using his long arms to ward off blows, clinch in close and pound Smith in the kidneys.

Much as I like a lot of the old time fighters, if Jess Willard were meeting Wlad Klitschko today over 12 rounds, I'd give the big cow-puncher as much chance as Pianeta, Tony Thompson or Mariusz Wach. Probably less.

You can look at ANY era and find boxing writers denigrating the quality of fighters . . .you think the boxing writers of the 1970s thought it a "golden age?"

I can find several write-ups of Willard praising his abilities. Yes he could get fat between fights and was well out of shape vs Roedel (although most thought that fight a draw and he went on to knock him out twice) and McMahon, for which he was a last minute replacement. His fight with Smith, an excellent fighter, was very close and some thought he deserved the nod. (Smith also split fights with the "dwarf" Langford, who is lb for lb one of the greatest fighters of all time).

Flynn got on a decent streak to get the shot vs Johnson (mostly out of defeating Carl Morris, who up to that point had received a huge amount of unwarranted hype) but after that was nothing more than a gatekeeper in the White Hope era, which was pretty deep depth-wise.

dempseyfire wrote:

Cap wrote:Go back and read contemporary newspaper accounts of the heavyweight division midway through the reign of Jack Johnson. It was pretty pathetic. At one point, Fireman Jim Flynn, all 5'9" of him, was one of the best caucasian heavies around. Gunboat Smith at 6' 2" and really a light heavyweight, was knocking bigger palookas out left right and center, he even managed a decision over the big plodding Willard. Both Flynn and Smith were easily disposed of by the dwarfish 5' 8" Sam Langford. The only great thing about most of the palefaced heavyweights of that era was their willingness to fight each other which made for some exciting punch-ups.

As for Willard, up until he beat the fat aging Johnson, most boxing writers had a very low opinion of him, marking him as a dull plodder with a fair left jab and little else. After losing in 20 rounds to Gunboat Smith by referee's decision, Willard drew with Charlie "Streetcar" Miller, lost to mediocre George "Boer" Rodel, knocked out a handful of 2nd raters like Dan Daily, Al Williams, and Rodel (twice), and lost a 12 round decision to light heavyweight Tom McMahon. In many of his fights, Willard showed little interest, often coming into the ring with a layer of flab around his middle, and throwing just enough punches to keep the other guy awake. Willard could go 20 rounds with Gunboat Smith because he didn't exert himself, using his long arms to ward off blows, clinch in close and pound Smith in the kidneys.

Much as I like a lot of the old time fighters, if Jess Willard were meeting Wlad Klitschko today over 12 rounds, I'd give the big cow-puncher as much chance as Pianeta, Tony Thompson or Mariusz Wach. Probably less.

You can look at ANY era and find boxing writers denigrating the quality of fighters . . .you think the boxing writers of the 1970s thought it a "golden age?"

I can find several write-ups of Willard praising his abilities. Yes he could get fat between fights and was well out of shape vs Roedel (although most thought that fight a draw and he went on to knock him out twice) and McMahon, for which he was a last minute replacement. His fight with Smith, an excellent fighter, was very close and some thought he deserved the nod. (Smith also split fights with the "dwarf" Langford, who is lb for lb one of the greatest fighters of all time).

Flynn got on a decent streak to get the shot vs Johnson (mostly out of defeating Carl Morris, who up to that point had received a huge amount of unwarranted hype) but after that was nothing more than a gatekeeper in the White Hope era, which was pretty deep depth-wise.

Dempsey is absolutely right. I've followed boxing for 30 years and the HW division has always been derided in that time. I have a stack of boxing magazines from the late 50s to the early 90s...and have read articles about how Foreman's defeat to old man Ali is proof that the division is in a terrible state.

Getting back to the original post, I don't think it was a poor lot at all.

Gunboat Smith did lose to Langford, but he did actually beat him once. Flynn would later beat a young Dempsey. Moran was decent. Of course these are just some of the white fighters. There was also Jeannette, McVey, and Langord, Wills came on at the end of his title reign.

agree - a poor lot? not for me

Langford, Jeannette and McVea were absolutely the cream of the crop from 1910 to 1918. But because of their colour they were left out of the title picture. They may as well been playing baseball or hockey for all the good it did them. Only white guys need apply was the slogan of the day in boxing.

Moran was a big strong guy with a terrific punch, but he was too cautious. He had two shots at the heavyweight title and blew them both by not going all out to win. No fire in the belly.

Jim Coffey was another good-looking kid who could box some and hit with power, but he had weak defence and a weaker chin.

Fred Fulton was a huge disappointment to boxing fans and his own managers. Tall and long-limbed, he packed a terrific left hook and could box pretty well if angered, but he was known to be faint-hearted and unable to take a hard crack on the jaw. Only legal wrangling likely prevented him from fighting Willard.

Gunboat Smith, a light heavy really, was likely the best of the white hopes after McCarty died. Good boxer. Outpointed Langford by relying on his stiff left jab and clinching when Langford got inside. Return go, Langford had him figured out and polished him off in 3 rounds.

Jess Willard had 20 rounds to prove he was the best of the division by whipping Gunboat Smith and he couldn't do it, despite being 4 inches taller almost 4 stone heavier with an 11" reach advantage! Had he been the same size as Smith, the Gunner would have knocked him cold. Only his physical advantages prevented a slaughter.

Most of the rest were sideshow attractions: Tom Cowler, Carl Morris, Jim Stewart, Dan Daily, Fred McKay, etc. Look at how poorly they fared against little guys like Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, etc. Ring warriors like Langford and Jeannette could eat them up and spit them out, when their hands weren't tied.

Willard was a huge plodder with minimal skills who didn't even want to be a boxer, preferring carnival and circus work when he could get it. Willard wasn't the best, he was just the most fortunate, being in the right place at the right time.

Cap wrote:Langford, Jeannette and McVea were absolutely the cream of the crop from 1910 to 1918. But because of their colour they were left out of the title picture. They may as well been playing baseball or hockey for all the good it did them. Only white guys need apply was the slogan of the day in boxing.

Moran was a big strong guy with a terrific punch, but he was too cautious. He had two shots at the heavyweight title and blew them both by not going all out to win. No fire in the belly.

Jim Coffey was another good-looking kid who could box some and hit with power, but he had weak defence and a weaker chin.

Fred Fulton was a huge disappointment to boxing fans and his own managers. Tall and long-limbed, he packed a terrific left hook and could box pretty well if angered, but he was known to be faint-hearted and unable to take a hard crack on the jaw. Only legal wrangling likely prevented him from fighting Willard.

Gunboat Smith, a light heavy really, was likely the best of the white hopes after McCarty died. Good boxer. Outpointed Langford by relying on his stiff left jab and clinching when Langford got inside. Return go, Langford had him figured out and polished him off in 3 rounds.

Jess Willard had 20 rounds to prove he was the best of the division by whipping Gunboat Smith and he couldn't do it, despite being 4 inches taller almost 4 stone heavier with an 11" reach advantage! Had he been the same size as Smith, the Gunner would have knocked him cold. Only his physical advantages prevented a slaughter.

Most of the rest were sideshow attractions: Tom Cowler, Carl Morris, Jim Stewart, Dan Daily, Fred McKay, etc. Look at how poorly they fared against little guys like Battling Levinsky, Jack Dillon, etc. Ring warriors like Langford and Jeannette could eat them up and spit them out, when their hands weren't tied.

Willard was a huge plodder with minimal skills who didn't even want to be a boxer, preferring carnival and circus work when he could get it. Willard wasn't the best, he was just the most fortunate, being in the right place at the right time.

Jeannette, McVey, and Langford were all well past their best in the latter half of the teens (post-1915) . . by 1918 they were washed up.

You're just picking holes in the White Hopes like you could do to any group of fighters in any era. Willard was not said to have minimal skills . .boxing writers noted he had a top class jab and moved very well for a man his size.

While most boxing writers of the day were lukewarm in their assessment of Willard, James J. Corbett was high on the big cowboy. However, he also later hand-picked England's Tom Cowler to be the next heavyweight champion of the world and was certain middleweight Jim Smith would beat Sam Langford. Corbett's poor record as a prognosticator was legendary.

Willard was better than a lot of white hopes, but so many of them were down right horrible, it's like saying Wlad Klitschko is the best heavyweight around today.

Willard had some weaknesses, and something he did well. To me, he belongs in the same class as Marvin Hart, Primo Carnera, Jimmy Braddock and a few others.We (including myself) are often guilty of ripping the weaker heavyweight champions. Yes compared to say Joe Louis he wasn't that good. However, he was better than the vast majority of fighters who have entered the ring.