BoxRec

After listening to Talksport about how the England team cannot produce Elite players it got me wondering about British fighters having the same problems, yes we can get World champions but fighters who can truly compete at Elite level only come once in a Generation!! Here are some fighters that i have grown up watching and where i rate them:

Elite:

Lennox Lewis was probably the only Elite fighter I really remember from these shores (Although he boxed for Canada as an Amateur) He could mix it with and beat the best fighters in the world when he was boxing.

Just under Elite:

Chris Eubank, Joe Calzaghe, Nigel Benn, Carl Froch, Prince Naseem Hamed, Ricky Hatton, David Haye, Amir Khan.

These were all very good World champions but imo the were just under elite level and could beat almost anybody on their day except the true Elite level fighters.

Joe Calzaghe and Carl Froch are the 2 from this list that I think were closest to reaching elite level, if Joe had beaten Roy Jones 5-6 years earlier he might have sneaked in and Carl has beaten most of the top fighters in his division but would have needed to beat Ward to get in imo.

Solid World Champions:

Scott Harrison, Junior Witter, Paul Ingle, Johnny Nelson, Glen Cattley, Steve Robinson, Ricky Burns, Wayne McCulloch, Carl Thompson, Robin Reid, Richie Woodhall, Clinton Woods, Enzo Macaranelli, Frank Bruno

These guys all had decent runs as World champions but could be handily beaten by fighters that were maybe not classed as elite, there might be a couple here that people might think should be at the just under elite level but this is just my opinion.

World Champions

Gavin Rees, Alex Arthur, Nicky Cook, Herbie Hide, Stuart Hall, Jamie McDonnell, Paul Butler

These were boxers who won titles but haven't boxed or imo would never have troubled the fighter vying for elite level.


These are just the ones that I can remember from my era and ones that I have seen boxing and I have put them in an order that is my opinion but why haven't the Brits had more elite level fighter?

is it down to our population size, our coaches and training methods or maybe the fact that there is less poverty here so our fighters are not as hungry to be the best as fighters from other countries?

I'd like to hear thoughts on the reasons we don't have more elite fighters and see what other fighters posters on here class as Elite or just fighters I have missed out of the lists.

As a Cruiserweight Haye was elite.

Potentially. A excellent thread

ttornado wrote:As a Cruiserweight Haye was elite.

If Haye was elite then for me you have to move Calzaghe and Hatton up to that level, although I'd have them there anyway and Froch, Eubank and Benn would have a good shout for being at that level, Haye beat Mormeck and Enzo as a cruiserweight, I don't remember him ever being seen as a top 10 P4P fighter, to me that would be one of the criteria for being seen as an elite fighter.

Calzaghe was elite.

expe wrote:Haye beat Mormeck and Enzo as a cruiserweight, I don't remember him ever being seen as a top 10 P4P fighter, to me that would be one of the criteria for being seen as an elite fighter.

it was the lack of quality opposition and being in an unglamorous division that stopped Haye being P4P at CW.
But he's skills were elite level at 200.

Ian1973 wrote:Calzaghe was elite.

Like i said if calzaghe had beat Roy Jones earlier in his career then i would have had him in the elite bracket.

David McAllister wrote:

Ian1973 wrote:Calzaghe was elite.

Like i said if calzaghe had beat Roy Jones earlier in his career then i would have had him in the elite bracket.

He's still elite. Going on that logic you could say Jones isn't elite because he didn't fight Calzaghe earlier.

46-0 undefeated world champion for a decade makes you an elite fighter.

Ian1973 wrote:

David McAllister wrote:

Ian1973 wrote:Calzaghe was elite.

Like i said if calzaghe had beat Roy Jones earlier in his career then i would have had him in the elite bracket.

He's still elite. Going on that logic you could say Jones isn't elite because he didn't fight Calzaghe earlier.

46-0 undefeated world champion for a decade makes you an elite fighter.

That's your opinion mate but if you look through Roy Jones and Joe's records you'll see why Roy in his prime was elite and Joe isn't (my opinion)

Only big Lennie in my lifetime.

Being a world top 10 P4P ranked fighter isn't enough to qualify as elite?

Naz, Joe, Froch, Haye at cruiser and Hatton were elite fighters. Some were beaten by other elite fighters in elite fights.

mickey1975 wrote:Naz, Joe, Froch, Haye at cruiser and Hatton were elite fighters. Some were beaten by other elite fighters in elite fights.

I never really looked at it that way!! I kind of think as elite as someone you cannot see getting beat at his weight division by anyone currently there ie Rigondeux , Andre Ward at the minute

I would swap Lennox with Joe and be the exact same. 2 reasons for having Lennox just at world class

1) He lost to average fighters and really was losing badly to Vitali before the cut to Vitali saved him that was a head clash and Vitali was ahead on the cards.

2) Lennox was Canadian. He won Olympic Gold for Canada. Shouldn't of ever been able to represent Britain in my opinion.

As for have Joe as an elite fighter

1) He beat everyone put in front of him at both Super Middle and Light Heavy he was regarded as genuinely the worlds best at both weights which make him elite in my eyes. No other of the British boxers mentioned have done that.

2) He beat Roy Jones Jnr no matter which one he beat him

3) He beat Bernard Hopkins who is still at the top of the tree

Horse wrote:Being a world top 10 P4P ranked fighter isn't enough to qualify as elite?

Depends on the interpretation of 'elite'.

I know what the OP is getting at.

Nobody but Lennox has been a real world champ in the modern era. (Brit)

daviddee wrote:I would swap Lennox with Joe and be the exact same. 2 reasons for having Lennox just at world class

1) He lost to average fighters and really was losing badly to Vitali before the cut to Vitali saved him that was a head clash and Vitali was ahead on the cards.

2) Lennox was Canadian. He won Olympic Gold for Canada. Shouldn't of ever been able to represent Britain in my opinion.

As for have Joe as an elite fighter

1) He beat everyone put in front of him at both Super Middle and Light Heavy he was regarded as genuinely the worlds best at both weights which make him elite in my eyes. No other of the British boxers mentioned have done that.

2) He beat Roy Jones Jnr no matter which one he beat him

3) He beat Bernard Hopkins who is still at the top of the tree

Correct, all of that.

Sklar wrote:Nobody but Lennox has been a real world champ in the modern era. (Brit)

Calzaghe won The Ring, Lineal, WBC, WBA, IBF & WBO titles at super middleweight.

In what way wasn't he a real world champion?

daviddee wrote:I would swap Lennox with Joe and be the exact same. 2 reasons for having Lennox just at world class

1) He lost to average fighters and really was losing badly to Vitali before the cut to Vitali saved him that was a head clash and Vitali was ahead on the cards.

2) Lennox was Canadian. He won Olympic Gold for Canada. Shouldn't of ever been able to represent Britain in my opinion.

As for have Joe as an elite fighter

1) He beat everyone put in front of him at both Super Middle and Light Heavy he was regarded as genuinely the worlds best at both weights which make him elite in my eyes. No other of the British boxers mentioned have done that.

2) He beat Roy Jones Jnr no matter which one he beat him

3) He beat Bernard Hopkins who is still at the top of the tree

It's all about opinions mate!!! I actually thought when i saw you had posted that you were unhappy with me because I didn't put Ronnie into the Elite fighters category!!! haha

With regards to Lennox Lewis' defeats I remember them both as not taking his opponents as serious as he should have and in the heavyweight division more than most you pay for that by being ko'd but he never hid from any of them and rematched and comfortably beta them both in the returns!! I don't agree he that he was being beat badly by Vitali but even if he was it was punches that ruined Vitali's face and him winning because he damaged his face so bad he couldn't continue is part of the sport am dis a valid way of winning!!

I have said before that Calzaghe was close but imo too many defences against utter crap during his prime years kind of take away from his legacy, the Robin Reid fight could have went the other way too. Maybe Joe Calzaghe could have been the best fighter ever from these shores but either him, his dad or his manager/promoter didn't have the belief he was that great or he would have boxed anyone anytime, if he had there wouldn't have been any doubt in anyone's minds about that,

David McAllister wrote:

daviddee wrote:I would swap Lennox with Joe and be the exact same. 2 reasons for having Lennox just at world class

1) He lost to average fighters and really was losing badly to Vitali before the cut to Vitali saved him that was a head clash and Vitali was ahead on the cards.

2) Lennox was Canadian. He won Olympic Gold for Canada. Shouldn't of ever been able to represent Britain in my opinion.

As for have Joe as an elite fighter

1) He beat everyone put in front of him at both Super Middle and Light Heavy he was regarded as genuinely the worlds best at both weights which make him elite in my eyes. No other of the British boxers mentioned have done that.

2) He beat Roy Jones Jnr no matter which one he beat him

3) He beat Bernard Hopkins who is still at the top of the tree

It's all about opinions mate!!! I actually thought when i saw you had posted that you were unhappy with me because I didn't put Ronnie into the Elite fighters category!!! haha

With regards to Lennox Lewis' defeats I remember them both as not taking his opponents as serious as he should have and in the heavyweight division more than most you pay for that by being ko'd but he never hid from any of them and rematched and comfortably beta them both in the returns!! I don't agree he that he was being beat badly by Vitali but even if he was it was punches that ruined Vitali's face and him winning because he damaged his face so bad he couldn't continue is part of the sport am dis a valid way of winning!!

I have said before that Calzaghe was close but imo too many defences against utter crap during his prime years kind of take away from his legacy, the Robin Reid fight could have went the other way too. Maybe Joe Calzaghe could have been the best fighter ever from these shores but either him, his dad or his manager/promoter didn't have the belief he was that great or he would have boxed anyone anytime, if he had there wouldn't have been any doubt in anyone's minds about that,

Taking fighters lightly - That is a totally subjective opinion. The fact is and it IS a fact that Lennox lost to Hassem Rahman and Oliver McCall. OK he beat them afterwards but nevertheless he still lost. Had Vitali not received the cut in his fight with Lennox Vitali PROBABLY would've won. Small margins, a cut here, not a cut there.

How does this make Lennox elite and Joe not? You could argue proper elite fighters DON'T take guys easily. Calzaghe had no slip ups, neither has Mayweather (for example).

David McAllister wrote:

daviddee wrote:I would swap Lennox with Joe and be the exact same. 2 reasons for having Lennox just at world class

1) He lost to average fighters and really was losing badly to Vitali before the cut to Vitali saved him that was a head clash and Vitali was ahead on the cards.

2) Lennox was Canadian. He won Olympic Gold for Canada. Shouldn't of ever been able to represent Britain in my opinion.

As for have Joe as an elite fighter

1) He beat everyone put in front of him at both Super Middle and Light Heavy he was regarded as genuinely the worlds best at both weights which make him elite in my eyes. No other of the British boxers mentioned have done that.

2) He beat Roy Jones Jnr no matter which one he beat him

3) He beat Bernard Hopkins who is still at the top of the tree

It's all about opinions mate!!! I actually thought when i saw you had posted that you were unhappy with me because I didn't put Ronnie into the Elite fighters category!!! haha

With regards to Lennox Lewis' defeats I remember them both as not taking his opponents as serious as he should have and in the heavyweight division more than most you pay for that by being ko'd but he never hid from any of them and rematched and comfortably beta them both in the returns!! I don't agree he that he was being beat badly by Vitali but even if he was it was punches that ruined Vitali's face and him winning because he damaged his face so bad he couldn't continue is part of the sport am dis a valid way of winning!!

I have said before that Calzaghe was close but imo too many defences against utter crap during his prime years kind of take away from his legacy, the Robin Reid fight could have went the other way too. Maybe Joe Calzaghe could have been the best fighter ever from these shores but either him, his dad or his manager/promoter didn't have the belief he was that great or he would have boxed anyone anytime, if he had there wouldn't have been any doubt in anyone's minds about that,

I was tempted just to see some reactions on here ha.. Think most know Ronnie is above elite anyway. Rumours are Lomachenko has said he will fight anyone but he's not fighting Ronnie "The Shark" Clark

I forgot about Nassem Hamed. :surprised:

I'd say he was elite too, just a shame he lost that Barrera fight.

Ian1973 wrote:I forgot about Nassem Hamed. :surprised:

I'd say he was elite too, just a shame he lost that Barrera fight.

Even more a shame that he never came back from it

Horse wrote:

Sklar wrote:Nobody but Lennox has been a real world champ in the modern era. (Brit)

Calzaghe won The Ring, Lineal, WBC, WBA, IBF & WBO titles at super middleweight.

In what way wasn't he a real world champion?

Super middleweight isn't a division with credence and historical significance, same with cruiserweight and others.

Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Welterweight, Lightweight, Featherweight, Bantamweight, Flyweight are the real divisions in my book, the rest is fluff.

Sklar wrote:

Horse wrote:

Sklar wrote:Nobody but Lennox has been a real world champ in the modern era. (Brit)

Calzaghe won The Ring, Lineal, WBC, WBA, IBF & WBO titles at super middleweight.

In what way wasn't he a real world champion?

Super middleweight isn't a division with credence and historical significance, same with cruiserweight and others.

Heavyweight, Light Heavyweight, Middleweight, Welterweight, Lightweight, Featherweight, Bantamweight, Flyweight are the real divisions in my book, the rest is fluff.

So what's anyone who can't make light heavyweight, but only walks around at around 14st supposed to do? They're too small to be a heavyweight, but can't make light heavyweight, they might as well not box if we thought like that.

Andre Ward's #2 P4P in most people eyes, but he's a super middleweight, so he's clearly irrelevant...

80,000 people just showed up for a super middleweight fight, but that clearly didn't matter...

Calzaghe clearly was elite. He retired as undisputed no1 fighter in super mid and light heavy division. How anyone can say any different is beyond me. As mentioned above David Haye was elite as cruiser. He cleared out the entire division.